Is anyone else getting quite tired of being called a racist?

[Peppatina]

I know it can't just be me.

It doesn't matter what carefully thought out reasons a brexiter has for wanting to leave (I've seen some very articulate and reasoned ones on mn itself) we are still all getting lumped into a stereotypical group of closet racist idiots.

And Lord forbid any of those reasons might just involve any concern over levels of eu migration!

I've been told that I'm essentially imagining the three week waiting list for my GP or that this is nothing to do with eu migration. If I say I know it is because of the names being called out I become the equivalent of Enoch Powell.

The same goes for a certain local estate very much being a no go area, especially for young girls. After braving this street once with my children and being spat on and shouted at by a group of very hostile Romanian men/boys I've been told I imagined it.

When I had my son a few week ago my I was the only English speaking person in my ward. A polish man was shouting and being very aggressive to staff as they were struggling to find an interpreter.

I absolutely know that not every migrant is aggressive and that they should build more schools and go surgeries but I believe I'm right to be concerned about a high number of migrants who are not intergrating with their local community and the unsustainable strain on services.

I'm sick of being told that my experiences don't matter. That to even mention that this is what life is like in our town means I am a racist or little englander.

Sorry, mangled that link. www.bsg.ox.ac.uk/research/working-paper-series/working-paper-005

Deep breath - awaiting the backlash.

I don't think that the open borders to EU residents is necessarily the problem here. I think that the issue is that there are too many UK citizens unprepared to take work because they get just as much on benefits. This in turn leaves low paid jobs available to EU workers, which to them in many cases can offer a substantial uplift to what they can earn in their country of origin. I think I would do the same, move to another country legitimately to make a better life for myself.

Of course the upshot of this is that UK employers see this as a means to get willing able workers at a lower rate than a lot of UK citizens are prepared to work for because it is either no better (sometimes worse) or only marginally better than claiming benefits. I am all for the welfare state and helping those in need. A rod has been created for our backs, if we had more UK citizens working rather than claiming, there would be no incentive for EU members to migrate here, as there would not be a glut of jobs.

Just my opinion.

How have you managed to live in Portugal without learning Portguese Vikki? My DH is Portuguese and we don't live there but I and my son speak it along with a good many other languages. Our children are dual nationals and DH will just get dual nationality in the event of a leave vote, sure it'll take a bit of work initially but it can be done, ironically many of our friends are doing the same from various EU countries. It isn't racist to wonder what will happen and where resources are coming from. Everyone has to be provided for and that takes planning. It's like holding a dinner party, you can't plan the food if you have no idea how many people are going to turn up, they might only get half a roast potato each and not be happy.

Calling people racist is a actually a bit lazy because it shuts down the conversation and actually stops you making points which could change their viewpoint.

So, am I to take it no-one's concerned that by solving one apparent infrastructure crisis by pulling out of the EU you essentially create another one?

I think this doesn't help the perception of people who would choose that to be honest; like one infrastructure crisis is okay because it's a British crisis for British people who have chosen to do things "the British way", and the other is not okay because it's an infrastructure crisis compounded by non-British people which non-Brits and Brits all suffer the same.

Saphire that research is specifically about hospital referral waiting times

Oh yes the lovely liberal so desperate to been seen as a friend of the others and pointing out we are all just the same mmm exactly

The arguments after the Paris bombings that some refugees who were ISIS supporters/terrorists were ridiculous because apparently they are not real refugees would have been funny if the issue was not so tragic

Sorry, you do come across racist to me. Have you never seen an English person act aggressively or commit an offence? In my past experience in a varied role that dealt with both working class Brits and migrants, it's the former that were ruder, more aggressive and more entitled. But again, that is purely anecdotal.

What makes YOU more entitled to be seen faster at the GP than a migrant? What did you do to earn that? Are you more deserving, regardless of what health condition they may have, because you just HAPPEN to be born to an English person? You didn't do anything or earn any rights. It's just good luck. I don't get patriotism. Sorry, but I don't. Congratulations, your egg ended up in a decent geographical location.

Bleak - What makes YOU more entitled to be seen faster at the GP than a migrant? What did you do to earn that? Are you more deserving, regardless of what health condition they may have, because you just HAPPEN to be born to an English person?

Because I have worked and paid my taxes
I live and pay my bills which also include taxes

Because I am British born! Because I have and am paying into the system

If I go on holiday I have to have insurance. So I do not use the countries NHS equivalent because I have not paid into there system

By that argument can I give your pension to the immigrant (I don't know nationality) family two doors down after all it's not their fault that they weren't born here

But I didn't say my anecdotes meant all immigrants were the same and that it was happening all over the country? I said it had negatively affected my area and I was sure it wasn't the only one.

Of course there are no go zones, long waiting lists etc. that are due some Britush people of the area.

But the fact is I have been asked repeatedly how I feel immigration has affected me, my area and my life.

And three years ago in my town there were no no go areas, I wasn't scared to walk down certain streets with my children. There was maybe a days wait if you were unlucky to see the GP and when I had my daughter I could talk to the whole postnatal ward whether they were British or not.

And that's not some idyllic fantasy purely because there were no immigrants because there were. Lots of eu migrants have settled here over the years.

It has only been in the last three I would say there has been a huge increase in a very short time and my whole community is struggling to cope.

'Because I am British born"

The thing is, maybe Bleak isn't

Who paid for Britain as we know it though? Did us and our ancestors pay for it through taxes? Yes, to a degree.

But Europe and Europeans also paid for it with blood in two world wars, the negative after-effects of which were not distributed proportionally between the countries based on their contribution to the effort. In that we got off lightly. And we do owe a lot to Europe for our freedom, our economic superiority, our resources and our services. I argue European migrants have paid towards Britain's infrastructure too, all-be-it not with taxes.

Because I am British born!

So that's better than working and paying taxes, but being 'only' British resident?

If I go on holiday I have to have insurance. That's not the same as living in a country, is it? An EU national paying UK taxes is just as entitled to use UK services as someone who happens to have been born here.

The reason I started this thread was because if many conversations like this after being asked how I was voting:

'So why are you voting out'

'Blah blah economy, sovereignty, democracy, Daves fishing business, immigration,'

'Wait...what? IMMIGRATION?!'

(Watch them sharpen their pitchfork)

'Well how has it affected you then?'

(I tell them the above anecdotes)

'Don't you think that's a bit racist?'

'No'

Sapphire - as usual take the most poignant part. And IGNOR the rest !

Yes I am British born I work and pay taxes therefore yes I am entitled

. That's not the same as living in a country, is it? An EU national paying UK taxes is just as entitled to use UK services as someone who happens to have been born here.

Go Australia to emigrate or New Zealand or Sweden see if you can get in without PROVING you have funds and insurance . Because they won't let you in. I emigrated over 10 years Australia. I had to have £10k in funds available to me and my own health insurance

So yes I'm sorry but just because you are in the EU you have a right to our services.. Like I say give someone your pension if you think that but I bet you worked bloody hard to get one!

*Because I have worked and paid my taxes
I live and pay my bills which also include taxes

Because I am British born! Because I have and am paying into the system*

And migrants don't pay anything into the British system? Bit of a big assumption, especially considering a large portion of those working in our NHS are highly qualified migrants who indeed DO contribute vastly to our system.

So what if you're British born? I fail to understand why that gives you a greater entitlement to anything? There are plenty of British born people who do not pay into the system, such as those requiring support, benefits, etc. What about them? Where do they fall in your hierarchy?

Just realised eatsleep already made the point - thanks!

I agree that anyone who immediately uses the racist argument against someone discussing immigration has already lost the argument. It's so lazy I can't get worked up about it anymore I'm afraid.

I think immigration is actually affecting more communities than people think. I live in a rural area with good motorway links not that far from a West coast mainline station. The amount of house building on green field sites round here is absolutely horrendous and the traffic is becoming unbearable because the good transport links are making commuting to e.g. Birmingham very attractive. The village school is way oversubscribed (doesn't stop the housebuilders from using it as a selling point of course). There are only 2 EU migrant children at the school so you could argue that EU migration does not affect the area. However British people moving to the area to avoid the problems caused by a rising population elsewhere are causing problems.

Unless you live on a Scottish Island or in a tiny inaccessible village somewhere, population increases will affect you (although the rich can buy their way out of such problems to a certain extent).

OP re; the Polish man in hospital episode that you describe, the bit that annoys me is that he was demanding a translator from the crumbling NHS (and I'd think the same of a British man doing the same in a Polish hospital). Was he going to pay for it or did he expect it to come for free?

And what about the ones that don't work.

Because if I hear they don't get anything your out of your mind.

As I say I live in Dagenham 100 houses in my road and 94 are foreign. And over 50 are rented out paid for by council.

One family is 9 adults and 3 children all go to school, they came here last year. They don't pay rent and the father is disabled and gets a car.

Oh and none work

But of course you focus on the NHS workers only.

"As I say I live in Dagenham 100 houses in my road and 94 are foreign. And over 50 are rented out paid for by council". - It was 96 yesterday. have a couple moved out or are you making it up ?

Eatslee- that was over 70 years ago.

What has that got to do with today. Because I'm pretty sure my grandparent took part in the war so uk could join the EU and be dictated to by a governing body that we never elected

No it's 94 I was wrong!

Did you go round and inspect the official paperwork of 100 neighbours?

I fail to see the problem. Is it any of your business really?

Migrants statistically claim far less in benefits than UK nationals proportionally, yet you choose to target them.

2014 official statistics show that 86% of out-of-work UK nationals claimed benefits, whereas conversely only 13% of out-of-work non-UK nationals did.

London borough of Barking and Dagenham census

Summary of the 2011 Census results for Barking and Dagenham:
• The borough’s population has increased by 22,000 since 2001
• There has been an almost 50% growth in 0 to 4 year olds
• The White British population has decreased from 80.86% in 2001 to 49.46% in 2011
• The Black African population has increased from 4.44% in 2001 to 15.43% in 2011
• The Bangladeshi population has increased from 0.41% in 2001 to 4.14% in 2011
• All religious groups have increased except for Christian and Jewish religions
• The proportion of Muslim residents has increased from 4.36% in 2001 to 13.73% in 2011
• There are fewer people with no qualifications compared to 2001
• Highest percentage of lone parent households with dependent children in the country
• Private renting in the borough has increased from 5.19% in 2001 to 16.59% in 2011

Dagenham is a shithole. It has always been a shithole. Grew up round there. It was horrible when it was totally white British too. Got nowt to do with immigration.

Jelliedeels do you care so little for what happened as recently as within a lifetime? I don't know a single ex-service person who would have us forget or minimise how this has shaped our world today.

It's quite fundamental to today in fact; it's certainly fundamental to Europe's original conception and ongoing mission statement. If we had been the ones sat on the mainland sacrificing nearly a quarter of our population for the good of a continent we might not be so pleased to fend for ourselves as an empoverished and stripped nation. Actually everyone in Europe thought that was pretty unfair so voila, Europe, a vehicle by which we can all share our successes from that war, minimise our losses, grow stronger together - not just the lucky ones - and not forget the contributions of the unlucky ones. Plus to keep what has always been a fragile peace in Europe.

So I think it matters a bloody lot. It's not perfect, so far from it, and yes we are stretched. We will be stretched, but that doesn't mean it isn't the right thing to do.