Make them seem crazy?

[bestmunchkinsever]

I was reading through the documents and statements from the original 1973 referendum campaign a few weeks ago and was not surprised to see that the basis of the 'in' campaign was to make the 'no' side look like lunatics and Nazis.

It was a very deliberate 'campaign' and you can see how it had an effect. Fake letters to the press from campaign members posing as members of the public was one notable strategy.

I just wonder if (disingenuously) we are being played like this again, en masse. I see evidence of this approach on here tonight, reading through recent threads. Some posters seem to be pushing a 'message' rather strongly, and it was this that made me remember the 73 campain docs.

Anyway, vote leave guys! Hundreds of reasons to do so!

'she is flapping because she thinks BoJo will be PM if Brexit wins'

He will probably be PM even if Brexit loses. Cameron is now on borrowed time, he will have lost credibility with conservative voters while gaining it with Juncker, Kinnock and Chuka Umunna.

'I think that he is a stooge'

Very possible, there are a lot of those around.

Claig, yes, I said that to her - she thinks he will lose too much credibility if Bremain wins but as I think he's a stooge anyway, I think the possibility of him being in charge is quite high.

Politics is so depressing.

I can't help thinking that most of the Establishment figures who support Remain are exactly the ones who might be looking forward to their cushy seat on some EU body when they retire. And who are worried that if we vote out it might take a bit longer getting through passport control on the way to their villa in Tuscany.

' but as I think he's a stooge anyway, I think the possibility of him being in charge is quite high.'

The thing is that the Estblishment is now desperately worried, they fear they can no longer fool the people. Isabel Oakeshotte was on the Sunday Politics and said that she tweeted that Gove had come across well in his debate and she then received a phone call from some Establishment source or other about her tweet. She says she thinks they are worried.

Also, John Major was rolled out today to savage Boris and wreck his credibility, even though Boris is the favourite to be the next PM. That is how desperate the Establishment are. John Major is supposed to be the "trustworthy" Tory that ordinary voters will believe. It is no good the Establishment putting Cameron up to savage Boris, because not many people believe a word he now says after the WWIII stuff etc.

But Tory voters won't be fooled by John Major and Labour voters won't really care what he says either. So they are down to their last penny as they head into the last lap.

"I can't help thinking that most of the Establishment figures who support Remain are exactly the ones who might be looking forward to their cushy seat on some EU body when they retire."

On yesterday's TV news, they showed Boris making a speech, which at least got the people laughing, and then they panned over to a speech from the Remain side, and the best they could show for the Establishment team was Kinnock, an ex EU Commissioner, the old guard, the past, representative of everything that the public is rejecting en masse.

The gravy train is running out of gravy as the British people cut off its funding and the Establishment won't be able to sup there any more.

The Establishment have got the old guard, the done and dusted, Kinnock, Ashdown and Major. They have to bring back those old spectres because the Establishment's current lot are such a disaster who will turn the people off.

At least Brexit have some current figures like Gove and Boris who can make the people laugh about the lies and exaggerations of the tired, old guard.

Claig " It is no good the Establishment putting Cameron up to savage Boris, because not many people believe a word he now says after the WWIII stuff etc."

I didn't think Cameron was savaging Boris?

I have to be honest - I am not paying attention to which side has which personality, it makes no difference to me. The comment about Tuscan villas did make me laugh though. One of my friends who likes to travel keeps on about the possibility of form filling etc to go abroad. Quite why this is supposed to be a catastrophe, I don't know.

I am a bit puzzled at some commentators saying it's obvious you will be Bremain if you are young. Then again, they like to put people in boxes.

Corbyn bothers me. He should be Brexit.

'I didn't think Cameron was savaging Boris?'

No he is not because Cameron has no credibility and Boris is popular, so Cameron trying to throw his weight against Boris would backfire for the Establishment, as Boris is more popular than Cameron. But the Establishment have to savage Boris because their entire future is at stake. So they have rolled out what they think is "trustworthy" Tory, John Major, to do it for them. And he said today that "this referendum is more important than a general election" which shows how they have neutered our democracy when our democratically elected government is less important than our membership of a supranational body run by unelected, unaccountable appointees.

The future of the Conservative party and the likely next PM, Boris, matter less to the Establishment than the EU, which is why they are prepared to savage Boris in order to save themselves.

'I am a bit puzzled at some commentators saying it's obvious you will be Bremain if you are young.'

It is just media propaganda, they are all with the Establishment. It is young people who face the most job competition and wage restriction caused by unskilled labour from the EU, so lots of them will vote to leave to regain control of our borders.

claig " It is young people who face the most job competition and wage restriction caused by unskilled labour from the EU"

this is what I thought, hence my puzzlement.

Isabel Oakeshott said the Establishment is worried. What they feed us on the controlled media is often a bunch of lies, they know the real truth and are worried. They will try as much spin and tricks as they can muster during the last few weeks and they control access to the public broadcasters so they will employ their best whizzkids to help them win.

Today on the Sunday Politics they bigged up an interview with an MP who would finally tell us, the public, which way he would vote. As if we cared what he thought. And it was Tory MP, Johnny Mercer. And of course, he had decided to vote to remain in.

They won't be putting any of their favourite MPs on TV in the last few weeks saying after much deliberation, they have decided to vote out, because that is not a message they want the people to hear in the closing stages.

I imagine Gove, Johnson and IDS et al are not establishment only insofar as they think the establishment is too wishy washy and they can't wait to dismantle everything and to carve it up for vested interests.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/05/john-major-nhs-risk-brexit-pythons-johnson-and-gove

It is particularly ironic these Leave campaigners are saying that they would give the misleading 350 million to the NHS. As Major pointed out, the NHS would be as safe as a pet hamster with a hungry python in their hands. Gove and Johnson want to privatise it in some shape or form and IDS wanted people to have to take out insurance. I suppose someone would be in the clover making nice profits. They may even donate to the political party and get appointed to the house of Lords to legislate. This would be entirely in the interests of democracy and the ordinary person, of course.

Dan Hannon said he wouldn't wish the NHS on anyone. Except possibly maybe to turn it into a vehicle for someone to make large profits off. Anti establishment my bottom.

Of course that eggy made up 350 million is like the mums net chicken. It will also go to subsidise farmers income and can be dished out again and again

No mention of the fact that of the 160 million net contribution that goes per week, delivers manifold returns to the country as the the value of it to business is billions of pounds. The Norway payment is not too far off that, but has no say and has freedom of movement.

In fact, Norway is in Schengen. As the UK has negotiated it's opt out of Schengen as a member of the EU, as an outsider it may be told to accept Schengen or lump it.

If Gove is so anti establishment and devoted to working in the interests of the ordinary person why did he vote against Labour who wanted to cap the bankers bonuses. Now he is trotting out propaganda that he and his partners are not cheerleaders of the establishment.

I imagine they feel quite held back and don't want anyone restricting their slicing up and dismantling of the public services of the country in the interests of this so called non elites and non establishment privateers. Never mind the establishment, you'd see the piranhas then. In fact the gravy train would just be starting.

Claig, it's an exaggeration to say Leave are on the road to victory on the back of one poll result. That's particularly true because the poll was online over the holiday weekend when many people aren't around, Remain was a couple of points in the lead & bookies put the chances of UK voting to remain at 72% against 28% for leave.

betting.betfair.com/politics/brexit/eu-referendum-odds-betting-update-polling-sunday-5-june-2016-030616-204.html

Making them seem crazy or racist or sleazy is a standard tactic in the political world when you, yourself have no valid argument to offer, It's just easier to attempt to smear the opposition. Pathetic really, but we had a good example of it today when Major decided to try to deride Boris rather than offer any positive vision for the UK within the EU.

Supposed to be another poll being released tomorrow that shows LEAVE ahead - the third in a row.

My feeling from the weekend's campaigning is that REMAIN voters are quite thin on the ground.

that's funny because I am convinced Bremain would win.

unless many Brexiters are just keeping quiet in real life.

You mean like when Mad Boris tried to discount the advice of the President of the United States on racist grounds, because of his Kenyan heritage? And when he claimed that the EU was like the Nazi invasion and occupation of most of Europe?

At least Brexit have some current figures like Gove and Boris who can make the people laugh about the lies and exaggerations of the tired, old guard.

But Gove & Boris are either ignorant or lying when they insist the UK sends the EU £350m a week. In reality we have a rebate which is never sent to Brussels. Our contribution of £350m is discounted before we pay the money so we actually send £250m.

The EU sends us money back mainly for farming & regional aid. It also gives money directly to the private sector, in particular for research. Our share of EU aid for developing countries is part of our foreign aid commitment. Adding it all up the net cost of the UK’s membership of the EU is £120m a week. If we leave the EU we are likely to maintain our support for agriculture, the regions, science & developing countries

Not taken into account are benefits of EU membership which are difficult to quantify (eg Foreign Direct Investment from the EU, currently worth £496bn, + the new & existing jobs it supports) & expenses currently shared with the EU such as translation & negotiation services. If the UK leaves & wants privileged access to the EU market along the lines of that enjoyed by Norway, we would have to pay for it.

"Brexit have some current figures like Gove and Boris who can make the people laugh about the lies and exaggerations..."

which they tell.

^that's funny because I am convinced Bremain would win.

unless many Brexiters are just keeping quiet in real life.^

Poll of polls (average of the last 6 polls) is probably the best indicator & currently both sides are level pegging.

whatukthinks.org/eu/opinion-polls/poll-of-polls/

John Curtis, the man behind the only poll that correctly predicted the General Election result concludes "another week has gone by in which little, if anything, has changed."

whatukthinks.org/eu/another-week-another-false-dawn/

" the man behind the only poll that correctly predicted the General Election result "

remembering, of course, that if ten thousand people forecast the result of a general election, or next week's lottery numbers, one of them may get it right purely on chance. No skill required. Racing tipsters often work on a similar principle.

remembering, of course, that if ten thousand people forecast the result of a general election, or next week's lottery numbers, one of them may get it right purely on chance. No skill required. Racing tipsters often work on a similar principle

Yes of course, but John Curtice uses a great deal of skill & has something of a reputation for getting it right more often than most.

Couldn't care what all the EU-funded sock-puppetting economists have to say to satisfy their paymasters.

Some things are worth paying the price for. democracy is priceless.

Yeah, love that democratic House of Lords! Not to mention that wonderful First Past The Post system! Yeah

Yeah, it so bad, let's replace it with something even worse' . Yeah - brilliant idea - vote Remain.

We held a referendum on AVR a few years ago and rejected the idea,, so FPTP has been democratically endorsed.

The Hose of Lords is an advisory body. The Government can chose to ignore its advice. if it choses to. It cannot ignore the laws that are handed down to it by Brussels