Have you seen Ken's extended congestion charge zone ? Will London eventually be a no-go zone ?

[hub2dee]

This page has a link to the current zone, and here's the extended one that is coming into place in Feb next year.

It includes a pretty wide area IMHO. I don't think this is very smart. And I don't think I'm feeling comensurate improvement in the bus or tube network, nor reduction in pricing - either (or both) of which would perhaps drive more people onto public transport.

Can you imagine being a small business towards the edges of this new extension zone ?

Residents get a 90% discount, so perversely it can actualy become more attractive to live INSIDE the zone IYSWIM.

I think this is slightly grim, although I am aware of the congestion and pollution issues London faces.

I live inside the existing congestion charging zone, and in a perverse/selfish way, am happy about the extension. It means that friends no longer have to "pay" to visit us! And I'll be happy to stop "rendezvous" drop offs outside the zone whenever we host a playdate here at home.

Seriously, I think the people who visit central London only occasionally for shopping/theatre etc do it mainly on the weekends when the charges are suspended.

I completely agree that the funds raised by the charge appear not to be going toward maintaining/upgrading public transport. It can be pretty unpleasant. There are so many roadworks in central London atm that using a car/taxi is sure to guarantee lots of sitting in traffic jams. You can't win really - unless you walk everywhere!

Early - friends no longer have to 'pay' as long as they live locally to you though (they will already have bought a permit) - there'll surely still be people who you know who live outsde of even the extended zone who might think twice about visiting during the week when the cc is payable ?

Another good reason IMHO to leave London. (But maybe that's part of the aim, LOL !)

Drive a car and you inhale a tax, several times over! Driving a car is the new cigarette habit and it will continue to get more and more expensive no matter what, unless of course you invest in a Prius or such like. Charging zones are merely a part of this trend and are here to stay. In fact from what I hear councils will soon get powers across the UK to do the same thing, if they haven't already. Blair's recent drive for greater local authority powers really means greater local revenue raising powers. There's soon to be a charging zone near you...maybe!

hub i've noticed a marked improvement in the frequency of bus services in the last few years. massive. and i use them a lot.

i think that this is the way of the future. we need to be priced off the road as drivers to the point that we really think twice about getting into the car unless it is the only way of getting somewhere.

for eg. I walk ds to nursery. it is a 15 minute walk each way (35 minutes with ds as we have to stop on the train bridge to look etc etc). loads of mums drive every day, and they live locally. and i sometimes drive if we're running late: i feel guilty about it, but think it would be a good thing if i were penalised for it to the extent that it just wouldn't occur to me to drive when i could walk.

i think that congestion charging, high road tax (particularly hight for gas guzzlers) and fuel tax are all the right way to go. we have got to stop taking our cars for granted in the way that our parents and their parents never ever did.

Good to hear you feel the buses are much more frequent, soph., though not sure the solution is pricing people off the road. I appreciate there is no obvious 'quick and easy' way to solve the problem, but I can relate to worldgone's metaphor - cars are the new cigarette. What's to happen in x years time ? Traffic jams full of Prii ? (That's the plural of Prius ). Yes, perhaps they will be producing less pollution, but the traffic will still be shocking.

I wonder if a system based on individual vehicle movement tracking (though this makes my civil liberty bones run cold) might be more fair ? These 'congestion zones' create artificial barriers in communities IMHO.

'individual vehicle movement tracking'

Are you paraphrasing the recent Norwich Union initiative? You buy a box for your car and pay car insurance as you go. That is, how much you're charged depends on mileage but also I think what roads you use; using GPS technology. But yes, this has huge civil liberty implications. Still, our movements are already tracked via card and phone useage anyway. A recent survey showed the UK to be as highly 'monitored' as in Russia and China.

What is the reason for it going westward?

Why not east?

Or south?

I think it is stupid cos when we take DS to the hospital we went on the tube and it was awful

So they deffo have not put any more into the tubes

We had to change trains cos they had probs on the line or with train

We have got to go again on Monday and i am not looking forward to it at all

Also I deffo disagree with the people who work at embasses getting it for free

well that stops me going to north london during the week I suppose .. unless I go the Tower Bridge route .. what a pain

I'm not worldgone (paraphrasing) but I had read about that initiative. It's just that if I were to drive for a few miles and then need to pay £8 for the last 200 metres just because I want to use a petrol station (if you get my gist), then it highlights that these arbitrary 'cut off' points can becomes somewhat stupid IYSWIM.

The tubes are shocking. I don't use them very much these days but whenever I do, I'd say one journey in two has some kind of incident (train destination changes, delay of more than 3 minutes standing still, series of trains not going to where you want, one or more line closure, station / escalator closure etc. etc. etc.

I presume the Westward thing Kanga is because the people are more monied and the roads are more congested ?

Up the edgware road is still OK T, isn't it ?

But Twig's journey, from Southish London to visit moi in Northish London (one day) is exactly my point. These things interrupt community. And cake.

you see I normally do the Hyde Park / Edgeware Road route which is nice and on the boundaries .. but come feb its slap bang in the middle

Ergo, women can't read maps.

The A5 is in white Twig, as is that little bit of A40 flyover top left.

They are both free (same colour as the non-cc roads if you look).

Come hither, marmitey one !

but isn't it the red dotted line that outlines the congestion?

Yes I guess it is cos of the richness of the car owners

I also wish that it finished earlier cos it would mean we could drive into the west end to the theatre without paying for it

Shows start at 7.30 and So imho the congestion should stop at 5.00pm

So people could go for meal and then to a show or even go to a show easier and more relaxed than trying to go in just after the end time of charges

I agree whith you hub about auto charging cos going for petrol and paying £8 is silly

memo to self: read key on maps

ok Hub when're me and da moo coming for cake then?

that's fine then .. that can go ahead as it doesn't affect me at all ... off you go Ken you have my permission

go through the blackwall tunnel twig, you know it makes sense!

I'm just glad we moved out - we would have been surrounded by bloody congestion zones and unable to move without paying a charge (yet not right on the border so unable to get a discount). Gather most people in the new zone didn't actually want it.

Btw, have posted about this before, but in the 80s South Yorks council had transport policy sorted. Made public transport dirt cheap, frequent and reliable. Dramatic decline in road journeys as it was only worth using your car when you really needed it. No traffic jams, equally dramatic decline in accidents etc. etc. Demonstrated by serious studies comparing like with like in terms of West Yorkshire which is geographically and demographically similar. Worked in the countryside and in the UK's sixth largest city. Cost just an extra £20 a year on the rates, a cost that was more than made up for by reduction in congestion and accidents. Sadly abolished as a side effect of Maggie's campaign to get rid of Ken and the GLC.

It's simple and it works, but it's far less exciting for politicians than faffing around with complicated technology. Much less opportunity to play who can pee higher up the wall. And politicians these days seem to like sticks rather than carrots.

LOL @ designing cc zone for theatre-goers Kanga.

binty: Next week is chocker. DW says Monday 13th, Thursday 16th, Monday 20th, Thursday 23rd, Monday 27th, Wednesday 29th, Thursday 30th. You alone or with mutual all fine. Alternatively, if you have an urgent desire to see me, I have dd this Tuesday 7th (but have all day boiler appointment so can't really go for walks etc.) or Friday 10th. hth Lunch / tea / cake will be at my place or Louis' Hamsptead or else lemon drizzle at Mars'.

But I am being serious if you go to theatre you can get half price parking BUT you have to pay CC

IMHO it is stupid

why not stop at 5pm???

It would encourage more people to go to theatre during week

I hate going home on tube so we drive anyway but the CC is stupid

It can't stop at 5 because lots of people run out of work between 5:30 and 6:30, and Ken needs to charge them to have an impact on traffic.