We have just had solar panels fitted!!!

[2stressed]

Amazing!!! Can't believe the reduction in fuel bills. I'm seriously dumbfounded why everyone isn't doing it. We paid fir ours are selves so get the benefit of the feed in tariff but even if we'd got some of the rent a roof schemes the saving in fuel bills would be incentive enough!!!

Happy happy happy!!!

[PigletJohn]

inmysparetime Sun 04-Mar-12 19:33:11
you feel differently about the different investment choices

Where did you get the idea that you know how I feel about "other investment choices?"

Go on, I really want to know what makes you think you have extra-sensory powers that enable you to know what's going on inside my head.

I rather think you're just making it up.

[ilovemydogandMrObama]

what part is the subsidy? I know there are different schemes and the one that would interest me is where we would pay for the installation...

[inmysparetime]

FITs work the same as other investments in renewables, yet you feel differently about the different investment choices.
If you had read the entire sentence it would be obvious that I was referring to the ethical comparison between investment in FIT and in other renewables. I ascertained this from your 3 pages of posts opposing FITs and your apparent support of investment in renewables. Hardly a leap of intuition.

[inmysparetime]

mrobama the scheme where you pay for installation is the "feed in tariff" scheme. You can find out more about the details by contacting the energy saving trust, they have impartial advice and are very helpful and honest about costs and benefits.

[PigletJohn]

FITs work the same as other investments in renewables

No, you are mistaken. FITS are not an investment in renewables. They are a subsidy.

[inmysparetime]

a subsidy which is paid in order to raise an energy company's percentage of renewable energy.

[PigletJohn]

no, it is a subsidy which is paid to enable a small proportion of people who are in a position to install panels, to make a profit out of a scheme which is not economically viable, at the expense of all the other energy consumers who are complelled to contribute to a subsidy from which they receive no benefit.

[inmysparetime]

Firstly, investment in wind farms benefits only the owners of the wind farms, secondly, it is not customers that are responsible for paying FITs, it is energy companies.
Thirdly, customers benefit from the payments energy companies make to FIT recipients, as they get to use the electricity these households feed into the grid.

[PigletJohn]

it is not customers that are responsible for paying FITs, it is energy companies

You are mistaken. The money comes from a levy on consumers' energy bills.





Customers benefit from the payments energy companies make to FIT recipients, as they get to use the electricity these households feed into the grid.

You are mistaken. The energy bought by FITs is priced far far more than energy bought from the usual trade sources, so the cost is higher.

[inmysparetime]

Odd that you know better than the energy company I visited, who personally informed me that it is the company's responsibility to pay FITs, and they try to absorb as much of the cost as possible to avoid passing it on to customers.

[PigletJohn]

have you got that in writing?

Are you denying that the money comes from a levy on consumers' energy bills?

[inmysparetime]

From my energy supplier's website:
"Under the Renewables Obligation all major energy suppliers in Great Britain are required to obtain a certain percentage of the electricity that they sell to customers from renewable sources. Like other energy companies, we include the cost of meeting this obligation in your electricity price."

This covers FITs and all other renewable technology.

[PigletJohn]

"we include the cost of meeting this obligation in your electricity price."

Fair enough. So you do agree that the money for the FITs subsidy does come from a levy on all the consumers' energy bills.

I'm glad that's settled.

[inmysparetime]

The cost of the FITs is treated the same as the cost of investing in other renewables, yet you seem to have a problem with FITs and not with other renewables.
Why is this? I would have thought you would object to both or neither.

[PigletJohn]

I still haven't been able to get you to clearly say if investment by energy companies, into research or building renewables, comes out of their profits, or out of a levy on energy bills.

Do you actually know? You said earlier it came out of profits, then you said it came out of revenue. Which do you think it is?

Also, you keep using the word "investing" in relation to FITs. FITs are not an investment, they are a subsidy. I am under no obligation to have an opinion on "Investment" which is the same as my opinion on "Subsidy"

[inmysparetime]

We are clearly never going to see eye to eye, and this is just going round in circles now, so I will be the better person and leave it to you to have the last word.
Energy companies are clearly very selfish in obeying government guidance to pass on the costs associated with renewable energy to innocent consumers.
Just be glad they are honest and open about the costs involved in that aspect of your bill, and that they are committing to source energy from renewables.
I must say, this has been a most enjoyable debate. Thank you.
Enjoy your evening, and I will enjoy mine.

[PigletJohn]

I'm in favour of investment, I'm not in favour of subsidy.

FITs are a subsidy, and, worse, they take money from people who aren't in a position to have panels, and give it to people who are, so that the panel-owners make a handsome profit from an activity that is not financially viable without the subsidy. I say that is unethical.

I have not blamed the energy companies for carrying out the law to put a levy on consumers' bills.

I just had a look at my gas and electricity bills and I don't see the levy itemised on them, so not exactly "open."

Good night.

[GeorgeEliot]

Interesting debate.

I have a couple of points to add - the current cost of the FIT on consumers bills is £2 per household per year. I am quite happy to pay that even though I cannot afford solar panels at the moment, myself.

The point of a subsidy is to support an emerging technology until it becomes economically viable - solar panels are a perfect example of this, thanks to the subsidies demand has increased and costs have fallen, hence the FITs have been reduced.

Finally, the benefits of solar panels aren't limited to the middle-class homeowners who can afford them. The FIT has made the technology viable for social housing installations too - the housing associations then use the FIT payments to invest in better energy efficiency measures for their tenants, helping to reduce everyone's bills and tackle fuel poverty.

[PigletJohn]

GeorgeElliot I am quite happy to pay

that's nice

how about the people who are not happy to pay, and live in e.g. flats or rented homes with no chance of ever getting the benefit of making a handsome profit, but are required to contribute to the profits made by others who are luckier?

[GeorgeEliot]

In Germany, where they have had a FIT system for longer, solar PV is almost at grid parity.

The UK gets the same amount of sunshine as Germany.

The main factor pushing up energy prices in the UK is our reliance on imported gas. We need to be generating more renewable power here in the UK to reduce our dependence on foreign fossil fuels.

[GeorgeEliot]

generating more renewable power from resources in the UK will help reduce everyone's bills in the longer term PigletJohn.

We need subsidies to encourage people to invest in new technologies which will have longer-term benefits for all.

[PigletJohn]

The main factor pushing up energy prices in the UK is our reliance on imported gas.

I don't understand your point. If energy from gas is cheaper than paying big profits to people with panels on their roofs why are you pretending that it's the gas that's expensive?

If you happen to like renewable power that's one thing, but paying extra for it, to little schemes that are not economically viable without a huge subsidy, is quite another.