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Ethical dilemmas
Original poster

Worried I may have been casually racist

32 replies

Hepburn76 · 05/02/2022 18:19

Hello,
I would really appreciate honest answers here. I am guessing if I have to ask the question above then I probably have! And I am feeling truly appalled.
A bit of background - my DS was recently in a professional pantomime. He was one of four boys, two were black and two white. I was chatting to some friends today, one of whom was black, and they had been to see the show. They didn't go the night that my DS was on and I asked them who they had seen instead. They said they didn't know and so I said 'were they white?' because I was trying to distinguish who they had seen.
I can totally appreciate how this would seem racist. But I would like to present my case here and then I am very happy to be told I have got it so wrong as I am totally open to being educated! To me, I was so proud that the show was so culturally diverse. I know that shows have a history of discriminating and having a predominantly white cast. This show had done colour blind casting and the entire cast was very diverse. Which I was so proud of. I did of course notice that some members of the cast were black and some white. Just as I noticed the colour of their hair. But that was alongside me noticing their talent, who danced best etc.
It was a thoughtless way for to distinguish between them I appreciate. And I feel appalled if I caused any offense. The moment brushed past quite quickly. And I realised what I had said after I had said it.

Can I ask if people would be offended by this? To me, I see being black as something to be proud of, so in that respect I didnt see it as an offensive way to distinguish between people as you couldnt easily do it another way. They were all roughly the same age. Wore the same costume. If they had all been white I would probably have said what colour hair have they got.
Anyway I feel awful. I have family on both sides who are black and Asian. I abhor racism, have called out racism and now feel I have been racist myself. Please could people be honest and let me know if I have been offensive and if I have the best way to go about setting things right. Thank you.

OP posts:
Flakeymcwakey · 05/02/2022 18:22

Talking about a person's apparent race isnt racist in and of itself, OP. Specially if the person was white tbh, because race is usually only identified where the person isn't white (because racist assumption you only have race if you are not white)

Coffeetree · 05/02/2022 18:24

Well we live in a racist society, so it's possible that your comment might have landed awkwardly, even with your best intentions.

If any of your friends seemed offended, all you can do is offer a sincere apology and move on.

But otherwise, just based on what I'm reading, it doesn't seem like you really said anything wrong.

Flakeymcwakey · 05/02/2022 18:25

It would only be racist if you were equating whiteness with some aspect of the performance. "I don't see race" as a claim for being non racist really is only possible for white, ie. racially pri ileged people. Everyone else sees race because they live having to think about or deal with the consequences of racism.

DiddyHeck · 05/02/2022 18:27

"Were they black or white?" Would've been the best way to pose the question.

Original poster
Hepburn76 · 05/02/2022 18:41

Thank you for your replies which have articulated many of my thoughts in a much less clumsy way than I did.

OP posts:
kagerou · 05/02/2022 18:56

I don't think you were being racist at all. You were describing a physical characteristic in order to work out which actor they had seen.

user94747295 · 05/02/2022 19:03

You were just describing them. Can't be racist surely

user1471447863 · 21/02/2022 23:42

If a policeman asked you to describe who mugged you would you avoid mentioning the colour of their skin or ethnicity as it may be racist? Or their build so as not to fatshame? Would you presume their gender or steer clear of that too?

Skin colour is a descriptive characteristic and like hair colour (or presence or absence thereof) can be useful to differentiate between people when trying to identify one or the other.
"Were they black or white?" would be a lot simpler than messing around with such things as "were they 5 foot6 or 5 foot 8?" or "Was it the left handed guy or the right handed guy?"

Mummysgirl12 · 21/02/2022 23:46

No I don’t think you came across racist.

Your self explanations / ramblings though do come across awkward and I think can be perceived as crossing the line especially the “colour blind” test which in my ethnic community, we find an offensive term

LemonViolet · 21/02/2022 23:49

It’s not racist to notice or talk about race.

Lineofconcepcion · 21/02/2022 23:49

Suggesting skin colour is a descriptive characteristic is disingenuous. Describing a person by their skin colour is racist whether it was intended or not, and to suggest that describing people by their height or hair colour etc is 'messing around' suggests that to you the most important aspect of that person is they are black.

ABCeasyasdohrayme · 21/02/2022 23:56

It wasn't racist, but your description of being so proud the cast was diverse because its usually predominantly white is clumsy at best, as is your 'colour blind casting' description.

I think you're possibly trying so hard not to be racist that you're over explaining and, perhaps, inadvertently being insensitive/racist on occasion.

If my dc (we aren't black but we are a minority group) were cast in a play and another parent started saying how proud they were that the cast was so diverse I would tell them to piss off tbh it sounds patronising.

123456rose123456 · 21/02/2022 23:58

no i don't think theres anything wrong

HotPenguin · 22/02/2022 00:03

Colour blind casting is a thing though - it means for example that hamlet could be played by a black actor while hamlet's mum and dad are played by white actors.

TabithaTittlemouse · 22/02/2022 00:12

@ABCeasyasdohrayme

It wasn't racist, but your description of being so proud the cast was diverse because its usually predominantly white is clumsy at best, as is your 'colour blind casting' description.

I think you're possibly trying so hard not to be racist that you're over explaining and, perhaps, inadvertently being insensitive/racist on occasion.

If my dc (we aren't black but we are a minority group) were cast in a play and another parent started saying how proud they were that the cast was so diverse I would tell them to piss off tbh it sounds patronising.

This.

Op, why didn’t you just ask what they looked like?

FinnulaFloss · 22/02/2022 00:19

Describing a person by their skin colour is racist whether it was intended or not, and to suggest that describing people by their height or hair colour etc is 'messing around' suggests that to you the most important aspect of that person is they are black

I can't quite get over the ridiculousness of this comment.

If you had a group of 3 boys, one white, one black and one Asian and needed to tell a stranger which of the boys to approach, telling them 'the one with dark hair' is going to be pretty unhelpful 🙄

The most easily discernable, instantly recognisable and differentiating factor is their race. Saying 'oh it's the black boy' is just sensible.

What's racist is desperately tying yourself in knots to avoid all mention of race at any cost. How ridiculous to say using race as a descriptor is racist.

Sweetlikejollof · 22/02/2022 00:22

@Mummysgirl12

No I don’t think you came across racist.

Your self explanations / ramblings though do come across awkward and I think can be perceived as crossing the line especially the “colour blind” test which in my ethnic community, we find an offensive term

This. The interaction described was fine. The post is not.
Sweetlikejollof · 22/02/2022 00:24

@FinnulaFloss

Describing a person by their skin colour is racist whether it was intended or not, and to suggest that describing people by their height or hair colour etc is 'messing around' suggests that to you the most important aspect of that person is they are black

I can't quite get over the ridiculousness of this comment.

If you had a group of 3 boys, one white, one black and one Asian and needed to tell a stranger which of the boys to approach, telling them 'the one with dark hair' is going to be pretty unhelpful 🙄

The most easily discernable, instantly recognisable and differentiating factor is their race. Saying 'oh it's the black boy' is just sensible.

What's racist is desperately tying yourself in knots to avoid all mention of race at any cost. How ridiculous to say using race as a descriptor is racist.

Yet, if there was a group of three dark haired white kids, you’d somehow find a way to distinguish them. There’s be other descriptors and ‘differentiating factors’ than race available to you and you’d make yourself understood. Without ‘tying yourself up in knots’.

Funny that.

Sweetlikejollof · 22/02/2022 00:30

You’re so proud that the cast is diverse? Why? Did you have something to do with it? What is the source of this pride?

Also, you ‘see being black as something to be proud of’? That’s such a weird thing and I genuinely hope you’ve never said it to a Black person in real life. It would not be received positively. What does it even mean? Is being any race something to be proud of (in which case, why mention it)? Do you think being white is ‘something to be proud of’? Or just being Black, specifically?

MrsEricBana · 22/02/2022 00:30

I'd say not racist in itself, merely descriptive. If you try and "make it right" you'll make it worse I'd say.

HoneyFlowers · 22/02/2022 04:53

Maybe next time you could show them a photo of your son and say do you recognise him?

I wouldn't lose sleep over it.

Simonjt · 22/02/2022 05:09

Refering to someones ethnicity or skin colour is fine.

Being proud that non-white people were allowed in a pamtomine is weird and a bit white saviour complex, it also suggests you think a non-white person being allowed to perform is unusual, out of the ordinary etc.

FinnulaFloss · 23/02/2022 08:16

Yet, if there was a group of three dark haired white kids, you’d somehow find a way to distinguish them. There’s be other descriptors and ‘differentiating factors’ than race available to you and you’d make yourself understood. Without ‘tying yourself up in knots’.Funny that

For three kids of the same race, of course you'd have to pick something else to point one of them out.

But the most obvious visual difference is often race. 'Colour blindness' is made up woke bullshit. No one is going to meet someone at dinner then the next day be unable to recall if they were white or black. You notice. Which is fine.

I'm not going to faff about trying to get someone to assess people's height or hair colour from a distance for no reason. If there's one black kid in a group of white kids I'm going to say 'oh you need Sam - over there, the black boy'. Or again, hypothetically if there was one white kid with 2 Asian kids I'd say 'Oh that's Steve - over there, the white kid'.

It instantly identifies them from the group - why wouldn't you just say this?

Black people do not look the same as white people. Asian people do not look the same as black people. Why try and ignore the bleeding obvious?

SnakeLinguine · 23/02/2022 08:25

What you said wasn’t racist. However, your rambling self-justification about pantomimes and historical discrimination and bring black being something to be proud of is both rather mad, totally irrelevant and yeah, smacks a bit of pseudo-‘woke’ colourblindness and self-congratulation for being tangentially involved in an event that employs black actors.

Miraloma · 23/02/2022 08:42

@SnakeLinguine

What you said wasn’t racist. However, your rambling self-justification about pantomimes and historical discrimination and bring black being something to be proud of is both rather mad, totally irrelevant and yeah, smacks a bit of pseudo-‘woke’ colourblindness and self-congratulation for being tangentially involved in an event that employs black actors.
This with bells on.