Where to find practical guidance on what to do as LPA?

[GreatBigBoots]

Does anyone know of any practical guides for what someone appointed as finance Attorney (under and LPA) for an elderly parent should (and shouldn't) do? Ideally something that covers things like examples of what sort of records to keep and what sort of things would (and wouldn't) be acceptable as expenses in the interests of the elderly parent? I have found plenty of guidance on setting up LPA, but very little on specifically what to do once you are an attorney

Mum has dementia (but currently has capacity to make LPA) and Brother wants to be LPA but does not seem to have any understanding of what a serious undertaking this is and tells me that someone he knows who has LPA has told him that there is no need for keeping records etc. I think if I could provide him with some official or independent guidance to read he might take it more seriously or reconsider whether it's the right thing for him.
Family dynamics are fairly complicated so Mum won't appoint anyone unless it's either Brother, or someone Brother agrees should have the role. I am the only other person who could realistically take it on, and I know that Mum would be happy with that if Brother agreed (I have been helping her with admin and finances for several years already). I have no great desire to take on the role of LPA but fear that unless Brother gets a better understanding of the role and can be persuaded to keep her finances separate from his own, and properly recorded, things will end up in a mess if he takes this on.

This age Uk has some information
https://www.ageuk.org.uk/information-advice/money-legal/legal-issues/power-of-attorney/#choose
it includes information about out of pocket expenses and keeping records. How decisions are made by the Attourney.

this also has some useful advice https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/how-to-be-an-attorney/how-to-be-an-attorney-property-and-financial-decisions

I'm lpa for my dad and to all his online banking. He has capacity but at 94 he can't cope with the online stuff.
I have a spreadsheet on my computer and record every transaction I make for him

This week
Monday Cleaner £25
Wednesday Sainsbury's online shop £56
Thursday: podiatrist £30
Plumber to replace radiator valve £15
Friday Specsavers - glasses £240

Every now and again I move excess funds into a savings account and note that transaction too
Birthdays- he asks me to "give the usual" so I set up the transfers for this. Should he lose capacity I could keep these payments going as it's been going for several years.
It's about 20 minutes a week I spend doing the spread sheet. The worst thing is going to be his tax return. I have registered the poa with HMRC and it's next week's job!

Just have meticulous records. The only place he ever goes out to is a cafe about 10 minutes walk away and he uses his card for this but the cafe know where I am so would contact me if his card needed a PIN as he can't remember his!

Thank you @Ritaskitchen and @Musicaltheatremum . Those links are very useful and the spreadsheet approach is exactly what I am already keeping for Mum, to help keep on track of her finances now that she needs help.

Chat GPT has been pretty good at handholding us through it so far.

What are your concerns about your brother not doing it properly? The part of your post that concerns me is that your brother would need to ‘be persuaded to keep his finances separate from hers’… do you think he will try to spend her money for his own benefit?

If you continue to actually manage her accounts, you will see all the transactions relating to her money. If you suspect something is amiss will you be able to confront your brother? Of course, if he becomes LPA and your mother loses capacity, he will be able to remove your access to her accounts.

My concern about Brother acting properly if he has LPA is that he appears to have no idea about what it actually means and seems to believe that it simply gives him control of Mum's affairs to manage as he sees fit. I've tried to explain but he claims that someone he knows does it for their relative and tells him that I have got it all wrong.
I currently have read only access to Mum's bank accounts (set up some time ago so that I can monitor things for her; in hindsight an early sign of her dementia as she became quite paranoid about criminals gaining access to her money and wanted reassurance that everything was OK). I check transactions periodically and it's obvious that Brother is currently using her bank card as he sees fit. It's not huge sums and I don't particularly have a problem with it since Mum is aware and she would be paying far more if she was paying for care etc. But I have suggested that we should really arrange for him to have a card in his own name for buying things for her (as using hers is technically fraud) and maybe set a weekly payment to him for board and lodging instead of her paying for things for him so it's clear that there's nothing untoward happening. He says I am being ridiculous and just over complicating things. I suspect that he thinks that if he has LPA he can just go ahead as he is.

I suppose my real concern is that if he has LPA and uses it as I suspect he will, then Mum later needs local authority funding for care, they may ask to see her finances and argue that there has been deprivation of assets. My hope is that perhaps if he sees some official rules/guidance on LPA he just might take it more seriously.

He needs his own card if he has lpa. He can't just use her's and he can't just take money out! Is he just using her card. I have a card for my dad's account which has my name and poa beside it. I would speak to the bank and tell them he is using her card. They could freeze the card. Do you have poa too? You could register your poa with her bank and stop him being fraudulent.
My dad has plenty of money. I could slowly Syphon off loads but I don't because I'm honest and my brother who hasn't got his pia activated trusts me.

Did you post before, about your brother and his family moving in with your mum?

Do you really believe that the problem with your brother is lack of knowledge? Do you honestly believe that if you present him with proof, he’ll take your word for it?

When you say he’s using her bank card ‘as he sees fit’ what is he spending her money on? And is she aware that he’s doing this?

And I have to ask - if you are the more trustworthy of you two, and you’ve already been helping your mum with her affairs for some years, why doesn’t she give you POA?

your concern about deprivation of assets is only valid if we are talking quite significant sums. If your mum is living with your brother and his family now, it’s reasonable that her living costs are paid from her own money. A set amount each month would absolutely be more traceable. If the house remains hers then it’s also feasible that she pays for maintenance and repairs. So what is she paying for that you feel uncomfortable about?

Useful thread.

I've been doing it for my DP for a couple of years & I'm worried my record-keeping isn't good enough.

I have a spreadsheet that records every one-off payment I make to myself and my sibling (also has LPA) from their bank accounts - usually if one of us has bought something they need using our own accounts.

But I don't write down the routine payments. e.g. have to take out c£200 in cash about every fortnight to pay gardeners and petty cash for the carer. I don't record that because I know what it is for & won't forget - but maybe I should?

I also have a card on their bank accounts which I use to pay for grocery shopping etc - which is obvious because the payment is going to their local supermarket. But how can I prove I was buying food for them and not me?!

Why don't you do a joint LPA I did with my 2 brothers.

The key phrase I use is “ You have to be able to demonstrate you are acting in Mum’s best interests.”

I keep very detailed records of all bank accounts, investments etc. All regular payments are either by DD or STO as it makes them easy to track.

I also have a tax return spreadsheet which I update throughout the year. This makes the self-assessment tax return much quicker.

I also provide the other attorneys with a monthly update and scanned copies of statements, letters etc.

I treat it like a job, being 100% transparent and ready to be audited at any time.

If you have concerns about the other attorney may use funds inappropriately i.e. Mum won’t mind if I just borrow or pay for xyz for me, then you need to think about if they are the right person or only having joint LPA. Note: Joint LPA is a pain.

If the OP is who I think she is, the brother and his family are moving in with the mother to provide care and keep her company. The mother really doesn’t want to go into a care home and sees this as a way to guarantee that she can stay at home. The brother wants POA to make his life easier and the OP is concerned that he will abuse this. The mother doesn’t really want to know as she doesn’t want to jeopardise being cared for and staying at home. The OP has been looking after her mother’s affairs for several years, but the mother prioritises the brother.

I'm aware that Brother may just ignore any information I give to him, but have a small hope that if he sees some official guidance he just might realise that there could be consequences for him if things aren't done correctly and might decide it's worth taking steps to avoid that.
I don't really want to have LPA myself- it would undoubtedly lead to frequent arguments with Brother that I can do without. But I am worried that if he has LPA and carries on with what he currently does it could leave Mum in a mess later.

Currently her outgoings exceed income every month so she is using savings for living expenses. This isn't a surprise and is part of the reason that they built up a savings pot. But currently the money being spent on her bank card and cash withdrawals are quite a bit higher than previously and quite a bit of her spending is on things that are clearly not for her. She currently has capacity and has agreed to this so on the face of it I don't have a problem with it- if she helps them financially and it works for both of them it's none of my business. My worries are

1. Although Mum/Brother refuse to consider it as a possibility, having seen the decline of other people with dementia, I think it's highly likely at some stage that paid care will be a necessity. Mum does not have funds to pay for this for long, especially since her savings will be further reduced by then, so it's likely that she will need local authority funding. If anyone looks at her bank statements as part of considering her finances it will be very clear that (if things continue as they are) money is effectively being given to Brother. It's not big lump sums, but would equate to thousands over a year. I don't know if that could be treated as deprivation of assets but would want to avoid the risk.
2. If Mum's spending continues in the same way under LPA (which Brother seems to think is fine) and OPG want to see her bank accounts it will be very clear that there is quite a bit of spending that isn't really for Mum. I don't know how likely it is that anyone would ever look (can they do spot checks? would the local authority raise a concern if they looked at finances as per 1 above?) or what the consequences would be (could he be removed and if so how would her finances be managed then if she does not have capacity to appoint someone else?). Again, risks that I think would be better avoided.

If Brother needs financial help from her in order to care for her, I'm sure there are ways to set this up officially (in the same way that she could pay someone else for care) but I'd want to look in to it properly and ideally set things up now, whilst she has capacity to agree to it. Unfortunately at the moment, Brother is adamant that I am just trying to interfere and make things unnecessarily complicated for no good reason.