Practical advice on sibling moving in with elderly parent and LPA duties

[catlesslady]

I wondered if anyone has any practical advice or could point me in the right direction of useful things to read about protecting against it being seen as deprivation of assets if a sibling moves in with elderly parent rent free, and/or what obligations I would have with finance LPA to question this? I've found the Age Concern help sheets really useful for other things but they don't seem to cover this scenario.

For clarity, I'm not opposed to the proposed arrangement (although sibling and I don't get on and I suspect he's thinking it will be good for him financially). However, DM is in her 80s with some cognitive decline so I think it would be foolish not to consider the possibility that she may need paid care at some point that she has limited funds to pay for. The situation in summary is:

• DM is now alone and very anxious about this, to the point that she has not been sleeping etc. She also has some cognitive decline and mild mobility problems that mean she needs help with some tasks and to make sure she eats properly.
• Sibling lives in a smaller house with his family and has suggested moving they all move in to DM's bigger house to help with this. They currently say the plan would be to keep their own house and at least some of them stay there sometimes but I can foresee that they may decide to rent it out or sell it (they are not well off).
• As they will be keeping their own home, I suspect DM will be expected to continue paying all the household bills for her home and to contribute to food bills etc. DM does not need personal care but sibling would be making her meals, doing her shopping, be around if she has an emergency and generally be company for her. DM wants me to deal with her finances and medical appointments etc (sibling is not well organised).
• There is definitely no intention to reduce her assets for social care purposes, in fact the proposal has come because DM and sibling are adamant that she should not have outside carers or consider assisted living/care home etc. I am more practical and can see that this may have to change if she needs a lot of personal care etc as sibling will be out at work during the day.
• When they are together, DM frequently pays for items/takeaways etc for sibling so expect this to increase if they move in. However, although I don't do the same my personal view is that this probably costs less than employing visiting carers so in the scheme of things not a big deal.
• Mum currently has mental capacity but would like me to have finance LPA effective immediately so that I can manage her banking/monitor her finances etc. Sibling currently uses DM's bank card to pay for things and withdraw cash on her behalf (due to vision problems that make it difficult for her to do it herself). I can't see that this will stop if I have LPA and sibling will not take kindly to me questioning what mum spends or how household bills etc are managed. I know that his view will be that whilst DM has mental capacity it's none of my business. To some extent I agree, but if I have LPA (to enable me to help her) do I have an obligation to understand/query financial decisions they make even when she has mental capacity?
• I'm wondering if there may be a letter or other document that we could put in place to set out the reasons etc if they decide to go ahead with this to make things clearer/easier if there is ever an issue with care home funding etc. Also wondering if I would be obliged as LPA to put a stop to sibling using DM's bank card (I know it's technically fraud even with permission) and to question spending that might look odd. Would it help to quantify the cost of visiting carers etc to show how this compares with what she would be paying for extra bills etc?

I'm just looking to understand how much of a problem this could be if mum needed care that she couldn't fund and also whether I would realistically be able to meet my LPA obligations (I could refuse, but doubt that sibling would do it properly particularly if DM did lose capacity)

Complicated. Lots of threads here to pull. I am not a professional in this area but we do have a similar situation in the family.

Deprivation of Assets would only come in to play if money had been spent/given away with the view of avoiding paying for care. That doesn't seem to be the situation here at all.

The two big problems I can see are -

Does DM want them all to move in and live with her, or is she dreading it? She could downsize and get paid carers instead. I appreciated DB probably wouldn't like this as his aim must be to preserve as much "inheritance". (ie DMs equity) for him as possible but what does your mum want?

DB using DMs bank account as a magic money machine. Very very awkward. You could set up two separate accounts, one for cash/day to day spending which got a regular amount paid in and that DB had Third Party Access to, and another main one that you managed that had her income going into and regular bills like utilities and so forth. Is there a plan for DB to pay anything into the household costs, or does he see living there for free as his reward for being a live in carer?

For us DBIL is now living with DMIL. I can't see that he's contributing much to their joint living expenses other than some shopping, but she likes the company and it's a relief having him on hand for day to day stuff like bins, taking her to the odd hospital appointment and so forth. She would definitely need the odd carer visit, more taxis and far more visits from us if he wasn't there. He doesn't have LPA or any dealings with finances as he's totally inept and everything he does ends up needing to be fixed and we don't trust him but DH does all that remotely and overall it works well for everyone involved. BUT it's just DBIL and MIL, no evidence of cognitive decline or need for significant care, money managed securely elsewhere.

No one should be using her bank card, that invalidates her bank contract. As loa you can have a joint card with her permission, you birth need to do this in person. What's the plan if she needs a carehome or dies and your brother is living in the house. It would need to be sold to pay for her care. Financial lpa is not effective immediately, it still has to be registered with the opg. Third party access with you as a joint card holder would be quicker.

Having lpa must only ever be for your mums benefit, I'd apply for both types. Her son moving in with his family, living rent and expenses free, is not in her best interests, all they are doing is keeping her company, the least they need to do is pay towards rent, bills and food.

@LadyGardenersQuestionTime Thanks for replying. Mum really doesn't want to live on her own but doesn't want to have to move house. In reality she wants to be younger and still have DF alive, and hadn't every given any thought to how she'd manage if she was alone (she can no longer drive, there's nothing nearby and all her old friends have already died). I don't think she really wants B and his family moving in, as it will mean quite a bit of upheaval and changes to the way she's had things for decades, but she'd rather than than being alone or moving to a home. Personally, I think in time she'd be most happy in some sort of sheltered living place with other people around in the day for company/easy access to activities and the ability to make some new friends but she won't hear of it. B is planning to keep his house on (and not let it out etc apparently) so I can't see how he would afford to pay towards household costs other than food as he already complains about not having enough money. When I googled the situation the AI answer said that someone living with you for less than a market rent can be deprivation of assets but I can't find any 'official' reference to this hence thinking maybe documenting the reasons. DM and B certainly see it as fair for her to pay for things for him as he's helping her, which I don't see as an issue in the short term but can see that it could be questioned if it becomes a long term pattern of her paying all the bills and also hundreds each week for treats/cash for them. I've tried to tell B that him using her card is not good but he's been doing similar for years and his attitude is that anything else is just me overcomplicating things. So I just want to be clear before I undertake to be LPA whether this could be a problem for me as long as DM has capacity and allows it.
@MissMoneyFairy Thanks- I will look in to bank access as card holder. Before this suggestion I'd discussed with DM registering a financial LPA so that it could be used whenever she asked (as opposed to only if she loses capacity). My worry for me personally is whether if we do that I have an obligation to oversee her finances even whilst she still has capacity. That would be impossible if she was living with B as I know that whatever I say they will both allow B to use her bank card. (I'm less worried about what would happen if she loses capacity as I would simply tell him he has to stop and cancel the card if necessary). As far as DM and B are concerned, them living with her would be in her interests as she doesn't want to be alone. There is currently very little actual care to be done, but she gets anxious at night and doesn't sleep if she's alone which has made her ill recently. So as far as mum is concerned this is a way to have company every night. From previous 'exchanges of views' I know that B's expectation (and probably DMs) was that I would move her in with my family but it's simply not something I am willing to do.

Neither DM or B are willing to consider her needing paid care/residential care (the closest I have been able to get them to consider is if she needed specialist medical care). They say they always plan to keep their own home to spend some time in so it won't be a problem to just move back. However, if I can see that being more of an issue if they live with her for a few years and move most of their belongings in. If DM needed a lot more care I can't see how B could provide it and keep working to pay for his own home as well, and this is where I was concerned that them living rent free could be considered if she didn't have the money to pay for all the care she needed.

For context, B lived with our parents rent free almost constantly until less than 10 years ago and has always relied on them for a lot. To him I don't think living rent free with his parents seems at all strange, if anything it's a comfortable return home.

I'm very much not an expert, but from my own reading I have come across a connection between deprivation of assets and paying no rent or lower than market rent. But the situation is different - that is when the older person, in an attempt to avoid care costs, transfers the ownership of their home into someone else's name, but continues to live there as if they still owned the property. There are tax implications with that as well as it's considered a gift with reservation of benefit. But that doesn't apply here - unless your brother and mother decide it would be a good idea!

Very complicated.

Deprivation of assets - on the surface I can't see that this is an issue if things are as you describe. No money is going to change hands, right? There is no loss in the value of the property just because more people are living in it.

The bank card / LPA is another matter. There's no two ways about it - what your DM and DB are doing is not legal - but it is a grey area that many families operate in.

When your mum says she wants you to have LPA for banking / finance, effective immediately, what does she mean? If she has capacity, then that usually means she is giving you permission to work alongside her to manage her finances i.e. she can still make decisions, and you can as well. So she can agree to your brother using her card - but it potentially puts you in a really tricky position if it isn't transparent and being used appropriately.

If I was going to take on LPA in your situation, the first thing I would insist on is complete visibility of her assets and accounts - income and expenditures - including the one she is allowing your brother to use. That means you will see every transaction that is made. You need this information to fulfil your role of LPA effectively.

What about a new joint account between your brother and your mother, and you have visibility of it via LPA for your mum? He can have his own card, they can each contribute an agreed share of the 'housekeeping' costs to cover their joint expenses, and your mum keeps her own money in her own account- to which no one but you has access. Depending on what the agreement is on paying joint household bills, they could also be switched (but I suspect your mum is just going to be expected to absorb all the increased costs 🙄).

That way you - as LPA - ensure that only appropriate expenditures are being made by your mum (not expensive furniture, or schools fees, or car insurance being funded by granny as happened in my family ) while still allowing your brother to spend household money that helps your mum out.

@TheLivelyAzureHedgehog Thanks.

There's no plan for mum to directly pay B any money in exchange for him living with her, but equally no plan for them to pay mum anything either. I know that if I was handling mum's assets as LPA, allowing someone to live in her home rent free could count as a gift that I shouldn't make, so wondered whether similar could apply for deprivation of assets. As you say, the value of the home won't directly reduce- in fact arguably it will be better maintained with someone younger living there.

Your suggestions re finances are very useful. I already have access to all mum's bank statements etc as she struggles with her sight and has asked me to check them. So I know that she already regularly pays for things for B (not as in, regular payment of a particular thing but frequent shopping, takeaways, cash). This is not really anything new- he often pleads poverty and now mum sees it as a bit of pay back for his help. I can't see them agreeing to stop this even if we know it would cause a problem.

I suspect that if your mums expenses are still within her means, ie she can manage whatever increase results from your brother moving in, then it’s not really going to raise any issues - except morally I guess. If she has capacity, she is allowed to make decisions.

The alarm bells for me would start to ring off your brother starts taking the piss, frankly. Large sums of capital being spent in a way that is outside the norm for her might trigger more of an alert.

If she loses capacity but is still at home, and your brother is still there - that will get trickier as you will have sole responsibility of her finances he will presumably still have free rein over spending her money.

if she had to go into residential care, and her house had to be sold, your brother will have to leave I presume?

Personally, I think in time she'd be most happy in some sort of sheltered living place with other people around in the day for company/easy access to activities and the ability to make some new friends but she won't hear of it

Hi OP, just as a 'by the way' this may not be feasible. She has cognitive problems already, and if she deteriorates sheltered living would not work for her as they don't tend to accept residents with more advanced cognitive problems.

Your brother and family moving in seems to solve a problem but depending on how it is handled it could cause other problems. One being that he's completely unrealistic about her remaining at home with him looking after her. She already has sight issues and cognitive issues, she may well deteriorate further to the point of needing not just washing and dressing, but feeding, continence care and help with mobility. Who does he think is going to do that?

But you say your mother has capacity so she is entitled to pay for his shopping or invite him to live with her. You don’t have to oversee those sort of decisions as her attorney while she still has capacity. It probably would only be an issue if he got rid of his own home so couldn’t return there when she needs professional care. Obviously you already know he should not use her bank card, but you don’t have any say over that yet either. So for now you have to let her do whatever she chooses, even if it seems unwise.

Does your DM claim attendance allowance ?

You or your DB can claim carers allowance (you do not need to live with the person)

Attendance allowance can be spent on anything to make your DMs life easier.

Secondly, I recommend setting up power of attorney for health & wealth, so that you have this ready to use when it is required. You can do this online.

POA apply here
You just need someone to sign & witness

https://www.gov.uk/power-of-attorney

Reading this I have an uncomfortable feeling. I suspect your brother will not want you 'looming' over any spend from your Mum to him and as you say he has been used to living at home previously where he was clearly taken care of financially.

He also is being very naive regarding what ayour Mum will need. Will he clear up after she has acccidents or wets the bed. How will he do this when he is working?

Claim this

www.gov.uk/attendance-allowance

Claim carers allowance

However it has an earnings cap, but National Insurance contributions are paid

https://www.gov.uk/carers-allowance

I don't think allowing someone to live in her home for free would count of deprivation of assets per se.

• She is under no obligation to move out of her own home because it's bigger than she needs.
• She is under no obligation to make money off the spare space in her home.

However what your mum and brother do need to think about is what happens if your mum needs to sell her home to pay for care. If your brother has no official ownership of the house, then the house would presumably be counted as your mum's completely when calculating the amount she needs to pay towards her care. This would mean that she might have to sell the house and use all the money to pay for care, and your brother would not be able to have/use any of this money to finance his own home/rent etc.

Not all banks do that. Barclays do but Natwest don't. Don't know about the others. Made life very complicated for me.

Thanks everyone. This has set my mind at rest a little re deprivation of assets- I was worried that if mum needed help with funding a care home further down the line this arrangement could lead to problems. But it seems like that shouldn't be an issue as long as mum's not actually giving away her house or capital, which is not the plan. The plan apparently is for B to keep his own home too, so he would have that to go back to if the arrangement doesn't work.

@catofglory Thanks for the info- I'd not realised that about sheltered accommodation.

I think I've come to the conclusion that even if I have LPA, I won't be responsible for overseeing mum's finances under this arrangement as long as she has capacity. This was part of my worry, particularly as my work involves charity finances so I could not risk being linked to anything untoward.

I can see that, at least in the short term, this arrangement would have a lot of benefits for mum and if that means she ends up paying a few things for B then as long as it's not going to cause problems if she needs funding further down the line, and doesn't put me in a difficult position, it's not a big deal.

My main concern now, as a few pps have mentioned, is that I don't think B has thought about what would happen if/when mum's health deteriorates significantly. We have applied for attendance allowance so that would help with the cost of carers if needed but I don't think B would be prepared for looking after her if she needed more than could be provided with a few carer visits (or for that matter, if she had continence needs during the night etc) or if mum stops feeling able to be alone during the day when they are at work. But I'm sure we'll have to deal with that if it happens. I also worry about how long B would want to keep on his own house whilst living elsewhere. I can see them deciding in a year or so that it's a waste of money and selling up, then having no where to go if/when mum needs residential care which I'm sure would make it a lot more complicated to sell the house (which would definitely be necessary if she had to fund a home). I think the crux of the problem is a huge personality difference between me and B- I like to have done a lot of research and have a plan A, B and C worked out before making any major decisions whereas B will just make a leap and assume everything will be OK.

Suggest
If you are keeping an eye on your DMs finances

Example
Her current account you put enough to pay her bills by direct debit & food
Plus spending money (includes money she spends on takeaways for DB)
This is the account with the card

You put all her savings into another account which nobody else has access.

Or load up a Monzo or other type of card just for small spending with DB

Suggest read this ref gifts

https://www.gov.uk/inheritance-tax

I have POA for my DM with immediate effect, as DM does have slight cognitive issues although does still have capacity. We have moved most of her money (doesn’t have much) into savings account to try and help prevent scammers getting hold of money. If you do that there will be limited funds for DB to access on DM’s card.

I have access to online banking (DM doesn’t know how to use that) and have a bank card for the account as her representative. I always tell her what we spend any money on, so if I have done any food shopping for her for example.