Joint and several POA? What happens when they disagree ?

[rickyrickygrimes]

Inspired by another thread on here, I’d be interested to hear how disagreements between attorneys are resolved when they are equally responsible but can act independently as well?

My sister and I have this arrangement for our parents, and my DH and his sister with their dad. In some ways it’s really practical - DH and I aren’t in the UK, so it means our siblings would be able to make decisions and act quickly if needed. But my sister and I often disagree strongly on lots of things. What happens if we completely disagree on some aspect of our parents care / finance in the future? Is it whoever gets in first ? Whoever has the ear of the other parties like medical / social services? How does it work in practice ?

Then your DM needs to make sure her wishes are detailed in the LPA so that it’s clear. However, there are times when her wishes could be overridden - for example if she states she does not want to go into a home but then loses capacity with no ability to take care of herself then unless you or your sibling were willing and able to look after her full time, she would have to go into a home. Social services would make that decision.

The healthcare POA has a section for things attorneys must or must not do (e.g. consent to particular medical procedures in particular circumstances), and also a section for preferences (e.g. your mum may prefer not to move to a care home).

These sections can be left blank, but if they're filled in then it could be really useful to guide the attorneys and remove some sources of disagreement.

(Something like preferring not to move to a care home could only be put in the preferences section, rather than the obligatory section. This is because the attorneys may not have the power to make it happen, as @Soontobe60 says. If in doubt, you might need a solicitor to talk through which preferences/choices to put in which section of the POA form, and how to word them legally.)

I know that all this would be a pain to set up, because you would need a whole new POA set up if your parents' preferences aren't on the form already. But if you're worried about disagreeing with the other attorneys then it could be worth doing.

I do hope people watching this thread take heed. My parents insisted they trusted us on decisions re their long term care. They even stated they never wanted to be a burden. I organised the whole LPA thing for them. They did nothing other than the signatures. Historically they ‘don’t do admin’.
I’ve organised all my own LPAs because it my responsibility.

A man in his 80s reversed into me this afternoon. He clearly was in wrong. Apparently I was the problem as he pointed his finger at me and informed me his daughter had health and welfare power of attorney for him and he would be making sure I was taken to court.

POA is only 'activated' if the EP is deemed to not have capacity. Capacity is situation specific. A person can have capacity over their finances (IE they still understand how to use money) but not have capacity over where they want to live (because they are putting themselves at risk.
Should the appointees disagree then it gets passed to the office of public guardian and ultimately if they still decide to disagree after intervention/mediation then a 'best interest' decision would be made. For example for health and welfare one person vehemently defending that the person WILL NOT be going into a suitable care placement and by doing so putting the person they have the POA for at unnecessary risk to themselves and others. It does happen but not that often and tends to be when one POA is obviously misusing the finances etc. Most health and welfare disagreements can be decided by evoking the best interest decision before it goes as far as the office of public guardian because often the professionals are working in a very restricted time frame and the risk to the EP is too great. POA can also be revoked and the office of public guardian would take over the EP's affair (though again unusual with a health and welfare issue)
As adults you would hope that neither person takes up a stance that's to the detriment of the EP.

@Reddlo yes à chat with Chat GPT suggested that ‘off to court we go’ was the only option, if the attorneys cannot agree. I’m not looking for specific advice on this, I just winded off anyone had ended up in this situation and how it was resolved, legally.

Id reiterate it's not 'court' in perhaps the way you think of it. There would be statements from professionals and evidence of multi disciplinary meetings etc

@rickyrickygrimes its bloody awful, you need the patience of a saint and ££. The key is to take the high road every time and to keep accurate records.

Ultimately you can apply to the court of protection regarding property and finance and this can be for one off decisions, or to remove a PoA. WRT Health and Welfare it’s building a relationship with medical professionals etc. so they keep you informed.

The key is to always work in the EPs best interests.

DH and his sister were in this situation and it has ended horribly, with the 2 of them no longer speaking. I can't begin to describe everything that happened as it would take me ages to type it out, but it was truly awful. MiL passed away a while back and they are still at loggerheads via the executor.

A letter of wishes kept with HW LPA would have much the same effect as a preference is only guidance for the attorneys, not legally binding. And it means you don't have to redo your LPA if you change your mind. Attorneys should pay just as much attention to a letter.

Doctors often leave very very detailed letters of wishes outlining decisions they would like their attorneys to make in various circumstances! Most other people leave the preference box blank or just put one line re life sustaining treatment to help the attorneys make decisions.

I hold joint and several PoA for my elderly person. I think it's all about how functional your relationship with your joint apointee is. And that this should have been considered by the person asking you to share the role.

I do most of the day to day stuff. My DBro is the other attorney and we are close. I consult him on big stuff but not day to day. He is sensible enough to recognise how much I do (from 400 miles away) and only offer comment if he thinks it's really important. For huge decisions we have a third sibling (not an attorney) we can loop in for input.

Thus far we haven't really come into serious conflict.

TBH the biggest issue is nothing to do with attorney conflict and all to do with conflicting values with the person we represent. Our branch of the family tends to value quality of life over anything else (my dying gift to my father was to negotiate sensible treatment ceilings for him and he got an objectively good, not very medicalised death) whereas the person we are attorney for thinks no-one should die ever. Better to be alive restricted to a hospital bed on masses of intervention and fully dependent on external care than dead.

It's hard to advocate for this when you fundamentally disagree, but I do, as it's not about my decision making but what the appointee would have wanted.

@BlueLegume I hope you’re okay after being driven into and shouted at (and I’m sure the LPoA will be tearing their hair out about whether their father should still be driving and how hard that is to sort out because ‘capacity’).

@rickyrickygrimes I have found reading blogs on open justice in the court of protection helpful to understand processes and feel prepared. My siblings (jointly and severally on both LPoAs) are thankfully amazing but do look to me to lead, which can feel like a lot of responsibility. Although I doubt my family would disagree, there is a significant likelihood of conflict on DH’s side.