Family travel decision

[LittleBear21]

Hello. I'm a long-ish time reader/first time poster looking for objective advice on a family travel decision. I've tried to make the following as neutral as possible, so as to not bias replies.

An elderly family member (C, early 90s), who is generally fit for his age but understandably cautious, has been invited to stay with relatives for several days. The journey is around three hours by train. He has travelled twice this way before, including independently.

One family member (A) who is closely involved in his day-to-day care, feels that continuing to travel by train is important for maintaining independence and the previous established arrangment. From a practical point of view, this also involves around an hour’s travel to the train station at either end.

On a previous visit, C's return train was cancelled, resulting in a wait of around an hour for the next service. He was not alone at the time, but the disruption added complexity and has perhaps made him even more nervous.

Another family member (B) has offered to collect and return him by car. This would involve a one-way drive of around four hours, or up to five hours depending on traffic. They feel this option would be more comfortable and predictable for C and are willing to take on the driving.

Everyone involved wants the visit to be positive and does not want to create unnecessary difficulty or upset foranyone else. But both A and B feel strongly about their preference.

I’d appreciate outside perspectives on what seems the most reasonable way forward here.

I think A and C need to offer both options to C and then back off and let him decide.

Which option would C prefer? Have A or B asked him?

Is C accompanied to the train station and collected by a relative at both ends? In the event of a dalay, is the accompanying relative able to stay with C and sort out any logistics for him. If so either option seems reasonable and it should be Cs choice.

If he chooses to be driven by B for this trip, he can still travel on the train on shorter journeys to maintain his independence if he wishes.

Surely C gets the casting vote!

If C has the capacity to make the decision, and it is put to him without bias, then C gets to choose.
If there’s any doubt about C’s capacity , or the likelihood of anxiety, then surely A shuts the fuck up and does what’s best for C

I agree that this decision is C's to make. And if C isn't capable of making a decision, then train travel is no longer an option.

C is capable of making the decision and has been asked a couple of times. But he tells A he will go by train, and tells B he wants to be picked up.

I really don't think C lacks capacity but is not good at advocating for themselves. He says what he thinks the asker wants to hear. Unfortunately there isn't really an unbiased party to ask him.

C would be dropped off and picked up at both ends of the journey by relatives and it would be a direct train. But C wouldn't be accompanied. A would book the passanger assist service as well as the train tickets. I don't know the extent that would help in the event the train is delayed or stopped mid-journey though.

Any other suggestions for what to do next?

Early 90s? I'd make it as gentle and easy as possible if this was my Dad (who is almost the same age and prone to anxiety). I'd collect and deliver.

If C is not good at advocating for himself and tells people what they want to hear rather than what feels comfortable and safe for him, then I dont think he is particularly safe on public transport alone.

What if the train broke down and he was left alone for ages - he likely wouldn't tell anyone as he didnt want to make a fuss? equally, is he ok at navigating himself in an emergency situation? even though C has capacity, it doesn't sound like he'd be ok in the event of anything going wrong and he sounds vulnerable to me

I agree with this.

Is this journey to happen soon? If so, there is surely a risk of travel disruption due to bad weather.

Definitely drive as B is willing. Often elderly relatives “don’t want to be a nuisance” and need a bit of assertive pampering.

Just drive him he sounds easily stressed and not able to advocate for himself. Trains are stressful and prone to break downs especially if it's windy or wet or cold or any day ending in y

B can make it into a half way trip with a stop if needed or if B can/is willing - or just a stop to have lunch and stretch legs, maybe see a small random museum or whatnot on the route. B can drive home the next day if relatives agree to put them up too

At what point does A think independent train travel should stop? When C gets lost or confused, or becomes ill en route?

This is not a child being trained in independence, this is an adult in their 90s whose capacity can only diminish. A is wrong to push this.

Car. There are other ways of maintaining independence. That’s a very long train journey unaccompanied.

I’m disabled.

passenger assistance are fuck all use in the event if a problem. They’re pretty useless generally to be honest - there is an app you can pre book on but it doesn’t turn up about 50% of the time and in and sort of unexpected situation you’re on your own.

other passengers are generally pretty helpful though.

my mum who is a similar age does travel by train but this is because I am now too disabled to drive her.
she recently got flustered when she turned up at York station for a prebooked train direct to home to find out it was a bus replacement instead. Fortunately my son was able to get her sorted (and no, she did not go on the bus).

if a relative is prepared to drive I’d go with that.

trains are unfortunately not very reliable and I’d question how he would cope if anything went not to plan.

Agree. And as for 'important for maintaining independence' a) he's already 90, it won't have much longer to run anyway I'm afraid, and b) it's not just about the mode of travel. I had a family member still living independently at 90, did his own shopping and all that, but who fell and broke his hip. Then it was all over and he never went home, moved to a care home from hospital. I would be concerned that a five hour multi part journey, undertaken alone, carries far more risk of a fall or injury that would undermine his independence, compared to being driven by a willing volunteer.

Trains are usually comfortable and pleasant to be on if you have a booked seat. They have toilets. You can read without getting travel sick and you don't have to make five hours of small talk with the person driving you.

If the person were new to train travel I might say car was worthwhile but given the elderly person is used to the train (and indeed coped with the delayed train scenario last time round), id say train. If first class is an option, I would look at taking it

Drive him. At 90-something, why not take the chance for a long chat in a warm car?

Safety and comfort are B's reason for wanting to drive. B doesn't think C will cope well if something goes wrong on the way. C has a mobile and can use it but doesn't like to. B assumes they would do so if an issue came up on the journey.

But it is A who lives with C all the time, and they are certain C will be fine. B believes C can be very difficult for A at times. A thinks B is taking on a ridiculous burden by driving 8 to 10hrs and that C will find the car as tiring as the train. B cannot stay with A and C at their end, and needs to be back home for their own family same day when dropping off. A is also worried that C will use this to refuse other activities in the future and the implicationsfor A of that.

The journey will be at the end of March for Easter (as it has been the last 2 years).

A or B would likely have to step in and go fetch C if a disruption part way through a train journey occurred.

At the moment, A has said B can collect because B will be near by for work the day before. But A is requiring C be sent back by train. If B pushes it they are likely to cause a real row; totally negating the pount of giving A some respite from caring for C.

Not sure how A can assert both that C is capable of making a long journey alone and that C can't make their own choice of how to travel.

Realistically, what is A going to do if B drives C home?

A is also worried that C will use this to refuse other activities in the future and the implicationsfor A of that.

I'm not at all an adherent to the 'relatives must become servants to an infirm older person' position, as my other posts on this board would show. But I honestly don't think it's self indulgent for a 90 year old not to want to undertake a 5 hour journey alone. And at 90 their capability will only diminish, so they are very likely to 'refuse other activities in the future' regardless of this. It all sounds like A sees them as somehow lazy and not trying hard enough which is baffling to me.

I understand A’s fears that C will lose confidence and become more dependent but realistically this is on the horizon anyway. From my personal experience of living with an elderly parent, they can rise to the occasion when needed but this takes its toll and a period of decline can follow.

I would not want to take this risk.

I am guessing from your posts that A is C’s spouse/carer and B is the child of C. A may have some additional resentment about C being infantilised and being expected to pick up the slack as a carer.

Car!
Train travel in the uk has become awkward and unreliable. There’s not a single mainline I’d have 100% confidence in getting me to my destination without issue.

My DF of a similar age had to do a much shorter unaccompanied train journey recently. It went really wrong. The train was cancelled halfway through the journey & they had to get off & wait for the next one.
Luckily other people on the train stepped into to help but DF cannot use a mobile & there was no way to contact the person waiting at the other end to let them know about the problem or that he was OK.

If I had the option of something drive him I’d definitely take that.

Thank you all for your thoughts. You've reassured me I'm not being unreasonable.

I am B. A is my father in law. C is my grandad in law (and A's father in law).

Unfortunately A and C do not get on. C lives in an annex to A and A's wife's (my MIL's) house. I don't fully understand why they have all decided on this arrangement when they all find it so difficult (but that's not any of my business and I have not said anything to any of them). What I have done is invited C come and visit my family at various times. This is partly as respite for them all, and because I get on really well with C and enjoy his company. (I am aware that could well be because of the much bigger age difference between C and me, how we met in life, and that I'm not C's carer. I do think C can be very difficult for my FIL(A) and MIL).

A has always insisted C come by train. This year when I invited C (when I saw him over Christmas) C said thank you but no thank you. I love visiting but don't feel up to the journey. I said of course I understand. On Friday, I get a text from A saying C has now 'accepted my kind invitation' and they want to book trains before they change their mind again. I said don't worry I will drive, and A basically said no you won't. I said I felt fairly strongly (because C was worried about the journey) and please would they let me do this (I'm 38 and used to doing long drives. It's really not an issue). A has said I can collect (because of my work thing) but C must return by train.

A is very used to getting his own way. I do not appreciate being dictated to. But I wanted to make sure I wasn't being too dismissive of A's point of view as a primary carer.

I've more or less decided that I will say yes to A's plan (drive to collect, train back). But I will ask C how he feels about returning by train unaccompanied when he's here. If he is worried about it, I will go with him on the train. I don't plan on telling A this in advance. This risks really annoying A, and I'd much rather be allowed to do as I'd offered openly. But if I keep pushing my perspective now I'll likely cause a big row. I know A feels put out that I have 'engineered' the collection as it is.

This situation seems a bit toxic really. C is not going to get any younger and going forward will be less and less able to cope with the train.

Given the state of the railways in this country there is a high likelihood of disruption so if somebody is willing to drive C there and back it seems perverse to try and prevent that. After all A is still going to get a period of respite.

The car. No question.