LPA dilemma

[victormeldrewcantbelieveit]

Looking for advice, please – this may be long!

My grandmother (DGM) is 81. The only family she has are me and her nephew (DGM’s late sister’s son). DGM and her DN had a very close relationship for most of DN’s life, but especially in the15 years since DGF passed and DN did a lot for DGM (and I know DGM had been particularly difficult and demanding at times). I don’t have the best relationship with DGM but try to stay in touch via messages and phone calls.

A few weeks ago, DGM got into a pickle with her online banking. She attempted to log in but had forgotten her password, and so was locked out, and the bank sent her a text saying they had stopped someone logging into her account.

DGM then decided that it must have been her DN trying to access her account (I am certain this is not the case and trust him implicitly). Without approaching the subject with DN, she took it upon herself to block DN from all forms of communication, made noises about changing the lock on her front door (DN was the only person allowed a key) and made an appointment with her solicitor to remove DN from her will. I then had to make a very unpleasant phone call to her DN, to clarify why DGM wasn’t answering any of his calls and what she had accused him of. After everything her DN has done for her over the past 15 years, I think DGM has treated him appallingly – he was heartbroken at being accused and in his words, DGM had acted as judge, jury and executioner without giving him any chance to discuss with her.

DN and DGM before this had a good relationship - DN has a heart of gold and is blessed with a hundred times more patience than I have. I struggle to be around DGM – whenever I am going to see her in person I have a pit in my stomach as you can never tell what mood she is going to be in – it’s like walking on eggshells. Over the past 30+ years I have known her, DGM has systematically cut everyone out from her life for little/no reason – friends, family, acquaintances. She hasn’t spoken to DN’s wife in over 13 years due to a disagreement about a holiday. She has quit hobbies at the drop of a hat just because she decides she doesn’t like someone else who attends. DGM has always been stubborn, headstrong, bullish and I don’t think she has ever apologised to anyone in her life and picks people up/drops them when it suits. I have been on the receiving end and have been cut out in the past for perceived slights.

I do however say the above in the context of believing there may currently be other factors at play that may be exacerbating her behaviour – I have wondered whether early dementia may have caused some paranoia-type feeling – her DN thinks it could be depression related (DGM has phases where she will lash out/withdraw for weeks/months at a time – this has been the case for decades).

I have tried to gently reason with DGM, suggesting that she may have input her banking details incorrectly (and said I have done the same, it's so easy to do, banks make it so difficult, etc. - so she didn't feel like I was attacking her), attempted to persuade her not to change her will on impulse, but she just ended up turning on me (and another member of my family who tried to speak to her). She went quiet for a while and then a couple of days later there would be another text message attack. I tried to call her to discuss the situation, but she screened all of my calls and immediately messaged me telling me to leave her alone.

She asked me if I would be willing to be executor in the new will (in place of her nephew). I told her I think it best if she appoints a solicitor to do this as due to the situation at present, it may get messy further down the line. I again tried to persuade her against removing her nephew from the will to no avail. She went to a solicitor appointment yesterday and messaged me yesterday evening asking if I would be LPA for her.

I'm torn - I don't want to end up being accused in the same way her nephew was (and he didn't even have LPA), particularly if I get involved in her financial affairs. At the same time, there is no-one else left in the family and I'd feel incredibly guilty saying no. Even before the LPA was discussed, my DH and another family member advised me against getting too tangled up with DGM as any time we have a relationship that is anything more than just surface-level and exchanging messages, my mental health takes a nosedive as she is so difficult and demanding.

I do appreciate that not having LPA in place may cause issues down the line - but I'm not sure I want to put myself potentially in the firing line by agreeing to be appointed.

It's probably also worth me mentioning that I have two pre-teens, work FT and have two chronic health conditions, both of which flare when I'm under stress - life already feels like spinning plates. I went to therapy earlier this year for unprocessed childhood trauma (during which DGM's behaviour/things she has done and said to me were brought up) and I feel like I'm only just getting back on track.

There are a number of similarities here with the situation I had with an elderly relative, and I feel for you.

First thing that jumps out at me is the jumping to conclusions over people trying to get at her money. It was the same with my relative and very much signalled the start of a long 15 years of declining mental health, paranoia, hallucinations, and trail of broken relationships resulting from it. Keep an eye on this, and if you notice anything with passing resemblance to a pattern then try and get her referred into the system.

About the LPA, your situation reminds me of trying to grab the clean end of a turd. I will tell you now that as she gets older and less capable of managing her affairs having someone with an LPA for finance and property makes life a LOT easier for everyone around her. If she's asked you I strongly recommend you agree to it because there may well come a point where decisions are taken out of her hands and placed in someone else's who are less committed to her, and it does make it harder for anyone else to take advantage of her.

It is relatively easy to prove that you haven't been stealing from her using the POA - just keep meticulous records, all receipts, statements etc. Just keep everything that shows that you have her interests, not yours, at the forefront of every decision. Ultimately, and this will sound harsh but it was my experience, if this is the start of dementia then the only person in the long run you'll need to justify your action to is the nephew. If you are given the LPA then I'd try to discuss pretty much everything with him too, so that at least you can share the burden of decision-making.

There is a code of conduct for people with POA so it might be worth reading through that if you can.

Hope this helps.

I am so sorry for the predicament you and your DN find yourself in. It's awful. I echo the excellent advice from the previous poster. Agreeing to LPA may well be helpful in the longer-term. Might be worth looking into getting a health and welfare one as well as the financial LPA, for potential future-proofing.

In addition, if you are presented as an "ally" by your GM to the solicitors, you may be able to have a discreet word with them about your doubts as to her capacity to change her will. This could be investigated, as someone who is found to lack capacity (which sounds like it might be approaching that area, given her reactions to your DN, the actions she has taken against him, and her lack of comprehension and insight into the reason for the locking of the bank account) can't always change the terms of their will unless capacity is confirmed.

I'm sorry I cannot offer much more in the way of helpful, practical advice. All I will say is that you must put yourself, your job and your children first. They must be your priorities (especially your children). I have seen families all but annihilated and lasting damage done because everyone was running around trying to placate and manage a difficult elderly relative who could not or would not make allowances or concessions that would benefit everyone. There comes a time when a team of people are needed to care for some people and it often falls to one kind relative (usually, but not always, a daughter or niece) running ragged to manage everything whilst sacrificing their own life and health.

It may be that this forum might be helpful to you as you navigate the future, there is lots of experience, wisdom and kindness there - Dementia Support Forum.

If you do decide that it is too much for you and you don't feel able to be involved with the LPA and further Sadmin, please try not to feel bad or guilty. You know your capacity and what you can endure and it is perfectly OK to say no and step back, especially if you need, for more than one reason, to protect yourself and your family from the treatment meted out to your DN. You are important too, and your GM's health, wishes and demands do not get to trump yours.

Every best wish to you. x

Op i think it would be good for you to be put in contact with the solicitor and explain your concerns and that this seems like quite strange behaviour for your GM although it’s not out of character. tell them to make sure they think she has capacity and isn’t making irrational choices.

they may encourage her to get a capacity assessment anyway as she’s cutting someone out and is elderly so dementia should be on their radar.

if she’s acting out of paranoia she possibly cannot make a new will. The same might be true for the LPA.

its not uncommon for relatives to contact the solicitor with their concerns. And here it is information that points towards her being irrational and paranoid.

Do consider carefully before you agree to be an LPA. I agreed to be one for my uncle who lives far from me. There is another LPA who is more local. We get on very well. However the work involved now my uncle has dementia is vastly more than I ever realized it would be. There are times when me and the other LPA have had to have daily long conversations regarding my relative’s care. You just think things are starting to become a bit easier and then something else happens.

I’m not saying don’t do it but just consider carefully what the workload involved may be.

In short, no I wouldn't do it.

I was attorney for my mother, she had dementia but she was relatively easy, I didn't get accused of anything and she was happy for me to take over. But I acted as her attorney for ten years and it was still a huge responsibility and very time consuming. And that was for someone who put up no arguments.

It does sound like DGM has dementia, paranoia directed at someone close is quite common. So she may no longer have capacity to do an LPA. But in any case I would keep out of it. You've seen what happened with the nephew and you'd be next in the firing line.

If your DGM is 81 then a solicitor asked to change a will and set up an LPA ought to be assessing her mental capacity to execute those things from the first appointment. Though of course some people will do anything for a fee...

If you and DN are the main/only surviving relatives then I would 100% take an LPA appointment if offered. The alternative is that once she loses capacity you have to go to the Office of the Public Guardian which is an extremely painful and expensive process (for which I speak from experience).

As part of the LPA process she has to consider who to notify, and if you can advise the solicitor in advance of the existence of a DN, then it would be possible (desirable) for him to be sucked into the process, maybe as an alternate, or a party to be notified. But anyway, once the LPA is triggered, you have control and can involve DN to whatever extent you desire.

On the will, what is she planning to do? Cut DN out and appoint you as executor and sole beneficiary? You could either apply to vary the will when the time comes, or just give a gift from your share...

once she loses capacity you have to go to the Office of the Public Guardian which is an extremely painful and expensive process (for which I speak from experience).

I agree that deputyships are painful - but the OP doesn't have to do it. She can refuse to do so, just as she can refuse to be attorney. Social Services would then appoint someone to do the deputyship.

Forget about the back story for a moment. Do you have the time, energy and commitment to be an LPA? Even if the wheels fall off, there is a crisis or emergency admission to hospital, etc?

If not then don't do it. It is hard enough when you like the family member. Even worse when there is a back story. My experience is that dementia amplifies pre existing mental health issues. So things are only set to get worse.

Equally if you do decide to do it, I believe (although check) that you can step down.

Finally, it is worth speaking to her solicitor re: capacity. But be aware if you say that as per PP suggestiom, they may not proceed with the LPA.

Have you written to her GP to express concerns? Or the local social care team? That would be my next step.

Thank you so much everyone for your considered and detailed responses - I really appreciate them all.

" I will tell you now that as she gets older and less capable of managing her affairs having someone with an LPA for finance and property makes life a LOT easier for everyone around her. "

This was kind of my thinking in one way ... I have read a few posts on here where trying to go through court at a later date has been difficult, time consuming and expensive so I guess doing the LPA now would have an advantage in that respect.

"In addition, if you are presented as an "ally" by your GM to the solicitors, you may be able to have a discreet word with them about your doubts as to her capacity to change her will. "

I had considered doing this when she first mentioned changing the will but I didn't know which solicitor she was even using - she is very private - however now she has asked me to be LPA then I could ask which solicitor it would be. There is however the drawback that if I raise doubts about her having capacity to change the will and whether they would then see her as not having capacity to appoint me as LPA, if this is what I decide to go with....

"As part of the LPA process she has to consider who to notify, and if you can advise the solicitor in advance of the existence of a DN, then it would be possible (desirable) for him to be sucked into the process, maybe as an alternate, or a party to be notified. But anyway, once the LPA is triggered, you have control and can involve DN to whatever extent you desire."

Unfortunately DN is now completely out of the picture - DGM refused to entertain the idea of seeing or speaking to him again and I think he has now decided to withdraw all contact and has returned her key to her. I don't blame him at all.

"On the will, what is she planning to do? Cut DN out and appoint you as executor and sole beneficiary? You could either apply to vary the will when the time comes, or just give a gift from your share..."

From what I can glean, it has been changed to remove DN as executor and beneficiary, leaving me and my DS as beneficiaries as per the original will, and also adding my DD as a beneficiary (she hadn't yet been born when the existing version of the will had been drawn up). I refused to be added as executor as I'd just feel awful given DN has been cut out...

Forget about the back story for a moment. Do you have the time, energy and commitment to be an LPA? Even if the wheels fall off, there is a crisis or emergency admission to hospital, etc?

This is the crux really - I don't drive at the moment due to my health so anything needing to be done in person would have to be done at evenings/weekends with DH driving. Adding in running my own business from home, a DS and DD, health conditions that can leave me bed bound for days at a time....I think I would struggle a lot.

Have you written to her GP to express concerns? Or the local social care team? That would be my next step.

I called her GP surgery and raised my concerns a couple of weeks ago - I spoke to the receptionist but they were not able to discuss anything with me at all. I did ask for a note to be put on file for the next time a GP spoke to her, to see if they could try and gauge whether there was anything amiss but I don't know if this actually was implemented or not.

This is a situation where I think there isn’t a wrong answer, because there isn’t a right answer.

Refusing to take on LPA would be completely reasonable- nobody has to do it and decisions can be made other ways. It’s clear that it would be a significant responsibility and probably a burden to you at some points.

However, there is no doubt that for her, it would be a good thing to have a family member still involved, for as long as she will allow it. It sounds quite plausible that she will lose capacity at some point - I’m not convinced from your account that she has done so yet, it’s entirely in character for her to make such a painful and self sabotaging decision as you describe it. There are definitely some processes that will be much easier with an LPA involved.

I think it just tips over into a yes for me, agree to it. But I wouldn’t think you’d done anything at all wrong if you said no.

Having the LPA doesn’t meant you have to be the person doing all the running around if they have a hospital admission or whatever. Read through what it actually means. Yes to managing finances as they would have wanted, and to knowing their wishes with regard to resuscitation and active treatment.
But none of that means you have to go and pick them up off the floor if they fall.

I agree with this and have frequently told the other LPA that being Attorneys does not mean we are default carers. However the reality is that this is what adult social services will assume..

I’m afraid that SS had to rapidly unassume in our case!

I’m happy to set up standing orders for care, organise meal deliveries, buy clothes/toiletries online and get them sent to the person. But I haven’t got involved with hospital appointments, emergency admissions (other than on the phone).

I do think that if I do agree to LPA, DGM will assume that I will become default carer and will be expecting me to be on hand at all times ... especially now DN is out of the picture. She was incredibly difficult with him (such as demanding he came back early from holiday as she needed something collecting from the shop). From past experience I can say that if you give her an inch, she will take a mile and then complain you're not giving her two miles. DGM's actions are extremely retaliatory if you don't do what she wants - at one point she didn't speak to DGF for 3 days ... all because he didn't make her a cup of tea when she got home from work.

She has form for being a an opportunist - now that I am going to be ‘helpful’ to have around given DN’s absence, she has gone from contacting me every couple of weeks to every day.

@victormeldrewcantbelieveit it would all be a hard no from me I'm afraid. My gran sounds similar but is not suffering cognitive decline.

Today when my sisterand I refused to do something for her she rang my dad who is literally just out of hospital having had sepsis, he's on dialysis 3 times a week, almost blind and can barely walk, expecting him to do it for her! I had to tell him to say,"No". She is not going to change but her behaviour, which has been the same fir as long as I can remember has now put her in a position where none of us want to, nor are we prepared to do anything for her going forward. Sadly, it's her own doing and she will just need to accept the consequences of her, selfish, manipulating, emotionally abusive
behaviour.

I do think that if I do agree to LPA, DGM will assume that I will become default carer and will be expecting me to be on hand at all times ... especially now DN is out of the picture.

You have to think of an LPA as an authority to take decisions, not an appointment as a carer! If it seems that she needs a carer, suggest that she employs one... And, if the LPA is triggered, your decision may be to appoint a carer, paid for out of her funds.

I'm so sorry - I hope your Dad is better soon. I have a relative on dialysis and just that is brutal enough without any of the other health problems x

Thank you

Are you good at setting boundaries and defending them? There's so much misunderstanding about LPA / POA. It does NOT mean you are signing up to take on an active caring role. It means that you have the authority to make decisions on behalf of someone who can no longer make them. But given the personalities and situation you have described I would be very very wary of getting more involved. It's already starting with her ramping up her demands and expectations and daily phone calls.

So again, I ask you, are you good at setting your boundaries and defending them? Is this something that you are good at?

What's the bigger picture here? What's her financial situation? Does she own her own house? Has she talked about her plans for when she can no longer live at home safely? Are there any care needs / carers involved at present? What did DN do for her - and are you planning to step into the breech? If not, who's going to do all the things that he used to? Not saying any of this is your responsibility at all - but you need to be clear on the magnitude of the job that she's lining you up for.

If no one takes LPA for her, then once she loses capacity decisions will be made by the SS rather than by a family member. is that the end of the world?

I was worse at setting boundaries - I think I am getting better but I'm not sure I would be able to hold her off at all times.

DGM owns her own house and as far as I know has her state and a private pension. I always got the impression she was fairly comfortable as she used to go on cruises, many trips away a year etc. and was always splashing out whenever she was shopping, but then at the start of this year she kept saying to me how she couldn't even "afford the water to have a bath". Though I do think this was more of a manipulation tactic to get me into the fold as I can't see that even with COL, her finances could have changed so drastically in the space of a couple of years. She actually later admitted to me that she was just squirrelling all of her money away and didn't want to spend it (!).

She hasn't really mentioned anything about what she wants going forward. There are no carers at present, I suggested a few times over the past couple of years (especially when she was complaining about her financial situation) that she applied for attendance allowance but she was too proud.

DN did jobs around the house, helping her with things like gardening, DIY, running errands, and some tasks to do with admin and so on - there's probably a lot more he did that I'm not aware of.

I sent her a message yesterday saying I was still considering the LPA, either the financial and property or the health and welfare one. I also asked her to consider applying for attendance allowance again, and made it clear that I'm not in a position to provide anywhere near the level of assistance DN did, due to DD and DS/health/work/not driving, and that attendance allowance would enable her to pay for help (she has mobility issues so I think she would qualify). This was my attempt at trying to put some boundaries in place but she has made is clear today she's not particularly happy with the message I sent.

There's an enormous backstory and if there were other people in the family, I would have gone NC years ago. Unfortunately I feel now I'm the only one left standing (due to relatives either passing away or her cutting people out) and I fear if I step away, she could end up being one of those cases where an elderly person passes and no-one discovers them for months. I'm resentful and angry at the situation and TBH feel like I'm trapped.

My DM (DGM's DD) passed when I was a teen and I lived with DGM for a while - during this time it was clear I was not particularly welcome - DGF would threaten to kick me out when I was 17 as DGM was giving him a hard time about me being there. When I was 20 and due to move in with a DP, I told her on the day that I didn't want to move in with him as the relationship was incredibly toxic and abusive and her response was "well you can either move in with him today or find somewhere else today as you're not staying here". The next day she was messaging me as I had emptied my room of everything except a TV, which she wanted me to collect as she wanted the room stripped bare.

When DGF died (prior to me moving out), she kicked me out for 2 weeks and took my key off me, and I had to stay with friends. She then got relatives to reprimand me for "not being supportive enough" even though I had been told to leave the house.

When I lived with her as a teen, at one point she screamed at me "why are you my responsibility".

Another time when I was living with her but was away at university, and I bought a car against her wishes, she banned me from going home that weekend and again I had to stay with friends. When she found out I was planning on buying a car, she shouted at me in front of a restaurant full of people.

She didn't visit DD in hospital (when DD was 4) as it was 'raining', even though she made her way to her hobbies quite happily in adverse weather. She told me my DS was her favourite and used to turn up for lunch with presents for him and not DD. When DD was 3, she told us she didn't like DGM as she had obviously picked up on this.

I used to take her out shopping and for dinner, but me going straight after the school run wasn't convenient for her (even if she had nothing else on that day) so I had to pick up DD and DS from nursery/school, drive to my house and sit on the drive in the car with DD and DS for 5 minutes before heading to pick DGM up (as opposed to going straight from the school run) as she would sulk if we were early. She would cancel on seeing us 90% of the time if she had a better offer from friends, often at the last minute as I was heading out of the door. She cancelled on having DS for the day as she had been invited to her friend's son's birthday party instead. But now all of these friends have been cut off or have faded, she is now interested in wanting a relationship.

During covid she deleted WhatsApp in a strop and unplugged her house phone and then complained that no-one got in touch with her. She never contacted me to see how me and DD and DS were, just sent messages that she clearly had copied and pasted to everyone, telling us all about how she was OK but not asking about anyone else. She only got in touch with me in lockdown when she wanted something ordering from Amazon.

When we were on a night away with another relative in a hotel, she got paralytic and started criticising my parenting (!), so I went to bed to avoid an argument. The next day another relative told DGM she had offended me, but DGM refused to acknowledge this and instead sat in the back of my car (I had driven us there) and didn't speak to me the whole drive home. The next week was my birthday meal and she was still frosty and barely speaking to me even though she was the one who had started the argument.

There are so many more examples..... but that did felt rather cathartic to write down!

Honestly OP based on what you’ve said do not agree to be LPA.

It’s a big responsibility and can end up being a lot of work even for someone you like/love/respect.

I think it was this thread where a previous poster made a really good point. If there was no LPA, social services in the end would just take over.

When I look at what’s happened to my relative, the end result would probably have been the same even if we weren’t involved. He would be in a care home, self-funding. It sounds brutal but that is the reality.

That sounds brutal @victormeldrewcantbelieveit - in light of that, I would be inclined to sever all contact and cherish family time with your DN.

She will continue to drag you down until you drown with the despair of it all. You owe her nothing. It's unlikely she will die and not be discovered for months. Social Services will have stepped in before then, especially if she is consulting with solicitors who may have to question her capacity. However - if she does, then this is the path she has carved out for herself. It will be her fault and hers alone. Not yours.

I think this is a golden opportunity to make a break and step right back. Free yourself and your children from her baleful influence. You bear no responsibility and you should bear no guilt. None whatsoever (easier said than done though, but possible).

Cut her off and be free to face your future with happiness and without fear of her further oppression. As you have experienced before (and as with your DN) it won't be long before you are back to being Public Enemy Number One, with all that brings with it.

The long-running Stately Homes thread on MN has excellent support and advice for those dealing with toxic family members. Also, the Out of the Fog website (FOG = Fear, Obligation and Guilt) is very helpful and has an excellent forum: https://outofthefog.website/.

Best wishes to you. x

Oh dear @victormeldrewcantbelieveit , that sounds like a traumatic upbringing. Is your own father anywhere in this? You lost your mum at a young age: it’s normal for a child to try and attach themselves to other related adults - your grand parents. they seem to have been woefully unable to meet your needs. But you seem to be stuck in a pattern of trying to make them (her now) happy so that they will love you and look after you. I’m sorry they didn’t do that for you.

Whose expectations are you trying to live up to here? If it’s your own expectations of what a ‘good’ person or a ‘good’ granddaughter should do, feel free to change your mind on that at any time. Enlist the help of a therapist if you need to (you probably do). That’s the one bit that you can control because she sure as hell is not going to change.

what does your DH think about all this?

I've been/am an attorney. I find it to be such a lot of responsibility, especially holding both Financial Decisions and Health and Welfare. It requires endless amounts of time and tremendous mental, emotional ans physical resilience, especially once the person loses capacity. Navigating the care system is hell but being a full-time carer is unsustainable for many of us. I would run as far and as fast as I could if anyone asked me to be their attorney again.