No LPA for in laws and never will be

[DyslexicPoster]

Posted before about this but it's back on my mind. Can someone reassure me that if ILs don't set up anyone for LPA they will still get into a care home and someone else will be able to pick this and sell their house etc?

We are trying to get both mil and fil to do a blood test and it's like pulling teeth out especially with fil who has managed to misunder every step and reason for this. It's taken four months for him to ask his gp one question at a time then rebook in with the gp to ask the next question for example.

It's also very obvious that dh isn't capable of asking fil for permission to talk directly to fils gp. It is what is. I'm still worried that at some point dh will be expected to do things he won't be able to without LPA

Please someone reassure me that the state can and does step in, sells the house and takes over for people who don't have LPA? I had a mad rush when my mum got ill with no LPA and I don't want dh to have to face that. Also dh would never be able to apply for deputyship. It's becoming clear dh has ADHD. I presume the ils have LPA for each other but don't think they have plan if one dies.

They won't end up rotting their house will they? They can pay for care so there's issue there. What happens if oneneeds care but the other still in the asset house? Can they stay there and the house be sold once they don't need it?

I keep having flash backs to my mum getting ill and phoning her, to get her to write to the gp so I could talk to them on her behalf. In the end she died just as we got her to agree to the LPA. There's no way dh will ever be able to set up lpa off his own back either so on reflection I doubt he could cope with being a attorney. But will be taken care of easily and willing by the state?

I know I shouldn't worry and I'm trying not too because it's not my issue but dh is my worry. In laws are free like my mum to make unwise choices. But I don't wish them to die neglected without capacity. Could we physically help out? No they live 300 miles away and we have a disabled child.

If they can’t manage their finances and don’t have capacity to make an LPA, then it may be worth seeing if a solicitor or the local authority would take on a deputyship for finance. That won’t help with medical and care decisions though. Make a social services referral maybe?
All depends on their capacity though and how able they are to look after themselves/one another. Hard as you’re so far away and depends how much time and effort you want to put into trying to sort their affairs out for them. Sorry you’re in such a tough position

Lots of people (most people) don’t have power of attorney and care still does happen, so please don’t worry about things you can’t change. My mum refused to do LPA for health and once she couldn’t make decisions for herself (which in her case happened overnight with a health crisis) the consultant in charge of her medical care made decisions in her best interests, which included referring her to a hospital social worker who sorted out her discharge to a care home. Now it has to be said that she did make a LPA for finances, which certainly made filling in the financial assessment for care easier, but it can be done without, though it may take longer.

I'm hoping this thread is a sudden panic due to your horrible experience in the past and feeling landed with responsibilities your Dh simply can’t deal with. There is a real silver lining to not having the LPA which is that the responsibility is not yours. Focus as you are on supporting your Dh and looking after yourself too. Just do what a daughter in law does - call and chat. Try to let go of the rest 💐

Thanks. I really don't want to panic or worry but as the innlaws are approaching 80 and no less stubborn it's a bit hard. I hadn't considered that the hospital could make referrals if there was a crisis so thanks for that. I will try to put it back out of my mind. It's hard around the anniversary of mums passing and fil giving dh is GPS phone number as if it's as easy to just phone the gp and take over

No, the state can't just sell someone's house to pay for care. You would be expected to apply for a Deputyship should they lose capacity to make decisions themselves - be aware this is a more complex and costly process that can take some time. The LA would start an account for the cost of care, which the Deputy would be expected to settle once they had gained control over finances or as part of executing the estate after the death of the Donor.

Are they actively refusing to sign an LPA? It's not clear from your post. If they are not actively refusing, but feel unable to do the administration required, I would recommend you take some time out to support them in doing the admin and signing the forms - it may be inconvenient, but it is absolutely worth saving you the hassle later on. I'm a position where relatives strongly resisted an LPA, then I can tell you everything becomes so much more complex without it and you will always "lose" if your opinion differs from that of Social Services. In contrast, I hold LPA for another family member who lost capacity very dramatically and suddenly during Covid. Because the LPA enabled me to make financial decisions, she got into a lovely home very quickly and her (physical) health and wellbeing has improved dramatically.

Just going through this with my relative.

In the case of no LPA there is no legal requirement for any relative to step in to provide care and support. When things get concerning enough that you think they need support you phone your local social services team and ask for a care act assessment and the GP to ask for support/referral. And you badger both. If that is not forthcoming, and you are urgently concerned you make a safeguarding referral. You also contact the GP again.

If you get to the point they have a crisis, it is straight onto the GP or into hospital. The latter wouldn't need to happen in a perfect world, but we have no step up care facilities any more thanks to cuts, so the only routes to accessing an assessment is via GP or a hospital admission.

One the social care team are involved either through a direct approach from you, or the GP, or a hospital admission, they will assess the person's capacity to make decisions about care. In the event of needing care and support, and no capacity they will then ask about financial arrangements. Where there is no LPA, they will seek to get a family member to apply for Deputyship. But in the event of no family member willing to step in, they will apply for Deputyship and take over control of finances. There is absolutely no requirement for you or your DH to do this.

In terms of health and welfare, without an LPA we have just been advised that the Court of Protection is very unlikely to award Deputyships for Welfare in light of recent case law. In this case, my relatives care is now under the ICB/Local Authority. I get to feed in my thoughts but I have zero influence on care decisions. In my case, this is helpful and this relative has extremely complex needs and a very complicated family situation. Not being involved is a helpful boundary.

That's worrying! Argh! It's complicated. Fil walked out when dh was 8 for his current wife. He was a absent father before and after and has very little to do with us now either physically. Always seems very loving and gushing but physically absent and hundreds of miles away of course.

Dh doesn't think of these things and won't ask. I suspect he feels uncomfortable bringing it up. Normally fil gets ill- step mil rings in a panic thinking fil will die then in the morning changes her mind and trying to keep us away. Fil will then downplay or completely get his diagnosis wrong ( said he had heartburn- it was a heartattack and three stents).

birth Mil is aBroad and got angry when dh asked if she had a will and plans for old age but years later, told him she does. Not idea who is executor or where the will is - dh didn't ask. Guess LPA won't work for her anyway as she never intends to come back to the UK. No care homes over there so I'm assuming she is expecting someone to provide care directly? But it's less of issue I presume as it's expected in that culture but I'm unsure in reality who would do this. Complicated! Feel more at peace about her is it's completely out of our hands anyway in that we couldn't even apply for deputyship if we wanted too.

The worry is that either fil or step mil pass away and they just assume we can legally step in once it's needed for the survivor with no pre thoughts. Like avoid thinking about it or talking about and if it happens it will just fall into place. Dh absolutely could never cope with applying for deputyship and the thought of me doing this for him honestly gives me something like ptsd. I was at a mental health crisis hub at midnight having a breakdown when I was in this position with my mum. I absolutely can not do that again. Well I'd have no choice but to help dh do it but I wouldn't cope admirably.

Ideally I guess for the in laws they ignore this will ever be needed neither have dementia or a stroke and we ignore it. I try to ignore it too because it's not my parents. But recently when fil has asked dh to just phone his gp and arrange this blood test I get this worry. That's they might get dementia hundreds of miles away and are walking the streets naked and all we can do is watch the car crash play out. Dh doesn't worry as I say I think he has adhd and very much lives in the moment.

I realise that no one but me is even considering this is a possibility. But I keep worrying regardless. I guess I want some reassurance that they can do this and it will be OK anyway? Not ideal but OK? Will they be left to leave the hob on and burn the house down because no capacity? Logically I'm thinking that's catastrophising as the gp has to declare no capacity anyway and at that point we can't get involved by the gp can't just turn a blind eye.

My motive is my mum leaving it too late resulting in quite frankly a horrific end. Maybe that's selfish. I don't want to see that happen again.it know it's their choice. It's not much comfort right now

Ultimately you have to protect yourself and your immediate family. It sounds like you would struggle to cope with taking on any additional responsibilities.
There are lots of older people in similar situations and you have to bear in mind that they have, to some extent, allowed themselves to get into this position by failing to plan ahead and have important (if difficult) conversations with family. Yes things might get hard for them and there will be risks to their health and wellbeing (like leaving the hob on). But realistically, you can’t be there for them 24/7 and even if you had LPAs in place, there would still be risks.
You can raise your concerns with their local authority and notify their GP - but maybe then take a step back.
But get an LPA sorted for yourself now you know how important they are!

God yes I'm waiting a few months for my 2nd child to turn 18 then we are setting up our LPA. My friends dd is a physio and she sees young parents have strokes in their 20s and their partners not being able to sell up or adapt the house.

But you haven't answered the fundamental question. Have you asked them about LPA and have they refused, or is it just that the question hasn't been broached to them?

It's a pretty straightfoward conversation to have, and either they're going to disagree or agree. Alternatively they might agree and choose to appoint someone else (not you or DH) as their attorney.

Would they watch the Martin Lewis video about POA?
Court of Protection/ Guardianship applications all a little different in each of home nations. N Ireland most expensive.
Whatever happens there will be literally thousands of others who have tread the same path. Social workers encounter this every day.
Also dozens on these boards will offer encouragement. Just search a few of the previous threads and you will pick up some great tips. Genuinely, if it doesn’t happen it’s not the worst thing.

Honestly @DyslexicPoster I know it is easier said than done, especially if you have had prior firsthand experience of the system. But in this instance I would try and step back. The most important thing right now is to have the conversation with DH about what and how you will tackle the inevitable crisis when it comes and make sure you are on the same page.

In effect I was your DH in terms of family history (not quite the same, M rather than F, complex mental health conditions to deal with M too, plus more), and the system has stepped in. And stepped in well.

The reality is you won't make them do an LPA. My M actually outright lied to me and told me one was in place with her siblings. It wasn't until we hit crisis I found out there was nothing. If she had just been honest DH and I would have had a game plan - if for nothing else just managing the horrendous emotional roller coaster we have been on.

Yes, relying on the system is less than ideal. We all hope we will have an ending we can control, but we can't make other people put the things in place they need to. And even if you had LPA in place - the reality is no one gets to say how they age or die. I had one relative pass away in their sleep after a lovely family roast dinner, another dies dueing COVID, in a hospital with no one around them.

It is their choice to not plan ahead insofar as possible, you and your DH are not responsible for them. Concentrate on what steps you will both take to look after yourselves, agree what you will/won't do now, be prepared to revisit the list when the emotional sledgehammer hits, and most importantly keep talking about it.

Good luck.

Conversations go no where to be honest. But it's just been mentioned in passing and pretty much brushed off. Things like don't worry it's sorted. But fil only has the two kids. Neither have signed POA. Step mil has no kids and not close to her family ( who also aren't in the UK). So who's got LPA? Not any NOK so heavy doubts and presume it's a brush off.

Dh has said he is going to ask his brother again. I think maybe it's got to asked via both of them referencing the last health scare. I think in laws panic and think POA is about getting their cash and I think this is big part of driving the worry.

BUT they could be each other's POA and set up deputies. Or just a straight honest no we don't want to do this thank you. Then we can point out we can't talk to Drs if they loose capacity. They know exactly what we can't do and they make a really informed desision and we can be honest if there was a crisis with the state. "No they expressly didn't want this therefore we will never be applying for court for deputyship" that would be hard to watch but ultimately much better than this.