Does everyone fall to bits in old age?

[Supersimkin7]

DP have both lost their minds, fall over and are doubly incontinent. They’ve had care at home for seven years and a zillion crises before that.

We’re trying to keep them out of an institution, mainly because they could be in there for another decade or more.

Neither has a single ailment that will end their lives.

How do most people go? Is it always as awful as this?

Not all, - I've known people go on for many years and have a calm death with only a few ailments. My ideal is to drop dead of a heart attack in the garden one day in my dotage. The reality is more likely a care home and dementia. My mum would have hated how the last 6 or 7 years of her life went if she had known what was going on - she had advanced dementia. She died of pneumonia in the end.

I've seen friend's parents go the same way.

We treat animals better.

An advanced directive of some kind should be enforceable - and I'll make it clear when the time comes that no resuscitation.

I think it’s just pot luck, my Nanna was poorly for years went in a home, was violent and was a shell of the women she once was. My Grandad was lively, was in the garden potting up new plants , got a bit of a headache so went to lie down and just never woke up! Not everyone will die in horrible circumstances.

I’m so relieved and thankful for you that some of us can still have what the Victorians called A Good End.

What upsets me about my parents is that we could have said ‘they had such great lives’ (they did) but now, after years of misery and madness, we really can’t.

@Tallyrand “I was shocked just how many pills they took a day.” Me too.

Two of my grandparents died suddenly, although one really was getting to the point with dementia where life was getting very tricky. A third moved into a residential home where he was unhappy (but he lived by himself in the middle of the country - had he moved to something in a town I think he’d have been happy but he never planned to live that long and didn’t anticipate old age) and died a week after a heart attack thst hospitalised him. In his late 90s my remaining grandparent is independent, shops, cooks, gardens etc. his grandmother died in her chair in her 90s, her mother needed care in her last six months but lived until her late 90s. But his father died of pneumonia when he was only in his 30s (in the 1930s). Modern medicine really is amazing if I think of the grief several of my grandparents suffered at a young age that would be unusual now.

my parents’ and in-laws generation I can definitely see ending uo in the prolonged living-with-numerous-chronic-illnesses thing. Of the four of them we have dementia, cancer (three cases in two of them), two lots of heart issues, digestive problems, and various mobility issues (I can well imagine a fall leading to the ultimate decline in two of them).

You’ve used your own money that should have been for your children’s university education to pay for your parents care?

that’s on you not your parents.

There is a lot to be said for stopping preventative treatment past a certain age (~85 but depends on the individual). So after then, no statins, pacemakers, flu/covid jabs as better to go quickly than a long prolonged decline.

My grandad was fit as a fiddle right up until the moment he dropped dead on the dance floor at 77.

A great way to go for him, not so much for my gran who developed massive anxiety issues as a result

have A look at ‘compressed morbidity’. IMO one of the best arguments for being fit and healthy in your 30s+ is to prepare for older age and lengthen your healthspan which also may give you a quicker end when it’s time.

Yes every old person in my family have had years and years of bad health as one thing after another goes wrong. They go into hospital and get cured only for something else to go wrong a couple of months later.
It appears we can keep people alive but is it really living?

I’m so sad for you all to hear the declines, but slightly heartened there’s still such a thing as a good death.

And a good life.

I know exactly what you mean. My dad was 84 and still working on the farm full time until 3 days before he died. The last time I ever saw him,we were discussing a building job that he was planning when he recovered. He died hours later. It was an awful shock,and I miss him dreadfully,but I'm grateful every day that he didn't end up lying in a bed,unable to do the job he loved,and incapable of being independent. That would have been torture for an active,outdoor man like him.

You've only got to look at Pope Francis, poor man, to see how aggressively doctors work to keep old people alive. And why, I really don't know. He's quite clearly suffering. I found the footage painful to watch.

Vaccines and endless courses of antibiotics keep the extreme frail-elderly hanging on through every winter now.

This has some data https://www.ageuk.org.uk/siteassets/documents/reports-and-publications/later_life_uk_factsheet.pdf

My mother’s health steadily deteriorated over a number of years, multiple falls ( no fractures), wouldn’t listen to anyone’s advice re using Zimmerman frame etc, spent last 17 months of her life in a NH.
My father was very able bodied, refused to pay for carers for my mother, very emotionally and financially abusive as it turned out. Died after two weeks in the NH of metastasises from prostate cancer diagnosed 40 years earlier.
They were 97 and 96 years old.
My father retired very early then did very little for the rest of his life which I found really sad.

There is a good argument for letting nature take its course, pneumonia isn't called old man's friend for nothing, much kinder to let people peacefully go to sleep and slip away.

People really need to take more responsibility for their health and fitness rather than just drifting into middle age as if deterioration is inevitable. I am early 60s and retired specifically to do more exercise and go lots of sports /no aches and pains. Recently ‘diagnosed ‘ with slightly elevated blood pressure and the doc is desperate to put me on meds, No explanation of any side effects, do looking into it myself I see numerous side effects including loss of muscle mass. This is serious because it is fundamental that old people need to maintain muscle mass for many reasons.
But no wonder people are increasingly feeble and infantilised when the NHS is determined to put everyone on meds as an ‘easy’ fix.

No most people don’t end up needing care homes -only 16% of people over 85 live in a care home

look after your health - eat well and keep fit

I saw somewhere that the single biggest predictor of falls in the elderly is toe strength. Not something I have ever really thought about before

https://www.humanlocomotion.com/the-importance-of-toe-strength-in-preventing-falls-in-the-elderly/?srsltid=AfmBOorulrvdJ4seE_OvKIY1C06ioaO4oDI4xQ6gBWhpgcY8FB2YD7du

Some info here

MIL existed in a nursing home for 5 years - doubly incontinent, immobile, dementia with Parkinson’s and advanced osteoporosis, cup fed liquid slop and unable to recognise or communicate with anyone. Yet every year she received a flu jab and Covid vaccine, and straight into antibiotics as soon as she got a chest infection. 🤷‍♀️. I’m actually amazed she finally died in the end, it took some doing.

that sounds flippant, it’s frustration at the unthinking ‘do everything we can to keep them alive’ nature of medical care. It’s so narrow.

I've been asked my views on vaccination for DM since she lost mental capacity for any significant decisions, and have always said that I would choose for her not to have them. We fought very hard against antibiotics and did finally get the 'antibiotics PRN' crossed off her drug chart at the NH - I didn't understand that at least in some cases the NH team appeared to be able to start abx without the GP's input (not 100% sure about that). Ironically she's probably been in better health since then - my view is that then sticking her on a 3-5 day short course of abx every time her urine got smelly was actually pulling her down more than helping her. I understand that especially in older women, urine dips will show infection most of the time when they may actually not be infected. But I'm not a doctor.

Recently ‘diagnosed ‘ with slightly elevated blood pressure and the doc is desperate to put me on meds, No explanation of any side effects, do looking into it myself I see numerous side effects including loss of muscle mass

@ThymeScent I had a similar experience with statins. He also didn’t mention side-effects. In fact, he went so far as to tell me not to look up any horror stories on the Internet! Well, I didn’t look up horror stories, but I did do a bit of research in my own time and decided not to take statins. I don’t have high blood pressure, I don’t have diabetes, I don’t have any heart conditions,- although I do have v high cholesterol. I did my own research and medical calculations (there is a calculation you can do online*) and the impact of statins at my age i.e. in my early 60s with my health conditions would be negligible. So I decided not to take them. There are side-effects with statins, not everyone to tolerate , and I don’t want them.

High cholesterol can also be impacted by poor thyroid function which I have (the liver does not process cholesterol well if there is a lack of Thyroid hormone). My high cholesterol is meant to be genetic but either way the NHS is obviously a fairly blunt instrument due to limited resources. Unless you “go private” it is quite difficult to analyse and try to optimise these health issues for oneself. Trying to sort it oneself involves a lot of research 🧐 but of course not everyone has the time or energy, ability or inclination to do this.

• it occurs to me that perhaps my GP could’ve done this calculation, as it would’ve saved the NHS considerable money instead of prescribing me lifelong statins for no significant medical reason.

No it varies. Due to my work I know a lot of older people, dementia and frailty does often kick in (not necessarily both) in their 80’s but not all, we have independent living, still driving fully capable people in their 90’s and some who literally went to sleep and didn’t wake up, of had a short illness that took them.

sorry to hear of your experience op but it really varies, meanwhile get the help you need, there is no reason why they will live a huge while, not feel you need to do it all

I should add that obviously statins may be very helpful for some people. But for those who probably don’t need them, why put oneself at risk of the following side effects?

Common side effects
Side effects can vary between different statins, but common side effects include:

• headache
• dizziness
• feeling sick
• feeling unusually tired or physically weak
• digestive system problems, such as constipation, diarrhoea, indigestion or farting
• muscle pain
• sleep problems
• low blood platelet count

Uncommon side effects Uncommon side effects of statins include:

• being sick
• memory problems
• hair loss
• pins and needles
• inflammation of the liver (hepatitis), which can cause flu-like symptoms
• inflammation of the pancreas (pancreatitis), which can cause stomach pain
• skin problems, such as acne or an itchy red rash
• sexual problems, such as loss of libido (reduced sex drive) or erectile dysfunction