Is this acceptable??

[Lunamoon23]

Hello,

Looking for advice, my father is in a residential facility/care home and has been since May of last year. He had a brain annyersum that left him unable to care for himself at home. He can walk but he often fell etc.

I’ll save all the backstory, but he has been going into the local town and spending huge amounts of money. He went in 4 days ago and spent £270 in Tesco. When I questioned him about what he’d spend that money on, given that he has all meals cooked and provided to him within the home, he told me it was stuff for the home. Fruit, biscuits, juice, vegetable's, cheese etc. It shocked me that they’d accept this?

we have a ongoing dilemma regarding mental capacity with my father and are currently in the process of seeking POA but in the meantime, this is the situation.

So my question is, is this allowed???

Is support worker or carer going with him?

My concern would be if it is actually him spending the money.

Sorry I misread.

No, he absolutely should not be funding food for the other residents and I’m shocked they would allow this. I would raise it with the management asap to understand how and why this is happening.

It’s one thing if he has the capacity to make this decision but a completely different situation if this isn’t the case.

Hope you get some answers soon OP.

No in fact I’d say that’s a police matter I’ll bet it’s a staff member doing it problem is your dad will probably say he agreed to it so nip it in the bud asap.

I’d call the police, I’d want them to review the cctv and see who actually bought what!

So, he is deemed as ‘having capacity’ by social services because he ‘understands’ what money is, however, us as family would disagree.
He is allowed to leave the care home as he pleases, which he does to go to church (a fellow church goer picks him up and drops him back) and he’ll sometimes take himself into town, which he does alone. (This takes him a very long time, we got a call on the same visit I’m talking about from the care home at 10.30pm saying he hadn’t come back yet, and we had to track him down)

So, I know it isn’t a support worker or care giver spending the money, as he is alone at that time.

What my concern is, is that he’s buying this stuff because they keep accepting it.
They haven’t even told us this is happening, my father did and I have access to view his bank account so can see what he’s spending.

But legally, is this allowed? For them to accept this kind of stuff from a resident?

Do you know he's definitely passing it on to the care home and not someone who says they are doing it for him ( maybe an unscrupulous member of staff )
Perhaps it's worth mentioning it to a senior member of staff and you could tell them you will report to adult social care if they admit it .

How does he get £270 worth of stuff back to the care home? It would be a lot of
bags and very heavy.

I would double check with the home that he really did turn up with £270 of stuff and ask what happened to it. This could then be the trigger to show he lacks capacity to make sensible decisions re money and shopping and take his bank card away. He can be given say £50 a week ready cash to fund his trips into town.

Hi, whilst not exactly the same I have experienced something similar. Except it was my brother who lives with my elderly mom just helping himself to her money. Btw my sister and i had already organised a POA for when mom is unable to make financial decisions for herself but it didn’t address the immediate issue. My mom knew what my brother was doing is wrong but also didn’t want to do anything about it as for some reason he is her favourite. So my sister got herself put on moms account so it became a joint one and this allowed her to set thresholds on the amount that could be taken out each day. She also visited the bank to show them the POA and ensure it was recorded so no one could come in with mom either to the bank to ‘persuade’ her to take out any money. It’s not completely foolproof but does give you some immediate control as a POA can’t be triggered anyway until your father is formally declared as u fit to make his own financial choices. Unfortunately legally, there is not too much you can do beyond this if your father is considered mentally competent. However, as a joint account holder you could set up an online account and monitor his finances more closely and also perhaps persuade him not to have a card and arrange a minimum say £50 per week withdrawal which if you have the POA and your father with you when you visit the bank they would assist with. Also I would probably send something in writing to the residence saying that as the daughter, you know this type of extortionate spending as out of character and would like such spending to not be encouraged. Otherwise you will escalate the matter upwards and request a formal investigation- possibly culminating with a criminal investigation. I mean if they kindly tell him they don’t want or need him to do such ‘favours’ then surely he wouldn’t? Hope some of this helps.

@Chouxhe catches a taxi home.
unfortunately, we did that. My sister had his bank card and was taking him in £50 a week but he then went into the bank and canceled the card she took and ordered a new one (he’s done this on more than one occasion). Unfortunately due the nature of his illness, it’s very complex, he suffered serious brain damage which makes him competent in certain aspects but not in others. It also makes him very impulsive.

@Wysiwyg100i did say to him, are you sure the staff are using it at the home and not just taking it home, to which he got quiet defensive about. But of course I’ve no idea if that’s happening or not. I am going to send the home an email but I didn’t know legally where I’d stand with it. Of course if they’re taking it for personal use I’d have to prove that. But if they’re taking it for the use within the home is that legally allowed?
my mum used to work as a care provider in peoples homes and it was always a rule that you weren’t allowed to accept any gifts from the people you cared for. And I’d assume it’d be the same within a home setting but I’m unsure.

It is pretty clear that, as you say, your father does not have capacity.

You only know what he tells you. He says he buys food for the care home, but you have no idea what he does with it. He might dump it outside and walk off without it. It is extremely unlikely the care home are accepting food bought by a resident. But obviously the first thing to do is ask them if he brings it back, and what happens to it.

Do you or other family members have POA? If so, it should be invoked and you should remove his bank cards so he cannot spend money. He is vulnerable and sounds at considerable risk going out on his own.

I would try to get a reassessment. Spending 270 pounds ( if there is no foul play) is seriously worrying.
If he is deemed to have no capacity you can apply for a DOLs. (Deprevation of liberty) ( Well the care home can) Which basically "signs over capacity". It ensures his safety so he cannot leave the care home unaided etc.
I used to work as a senior carer and we used to have DOLs in place for the majority of our residents.

Maybe a carer/worker goes into Tesco with him and your father is coerced or just buys them stuff or whatever. It's all very strange. I doubt a care home would accept this. Or if he did it once, they can tell him not to do it again. As they provide everything anyways meals-wise.

Where was your dad at 10.30pm?
And it sounds very odd that a care home would be accepting such large amounts of food/treats from a resident for the other residents.

@Choux I would double check with the home that he really did turn up with £270 of stuff.

This. It's possible that someone in Tesco is approaching him and telling him to buy the stuff and they will deliver it to the home, and the home knows nothing about it.

There is absolutely no way on earth that he is coming back to care home with £200+ food !!
The nurse in charge would be straight on to the phone to NOK.
You need to speak to the home to confirm that he is not coming back with bags of food !
More likely to be a customer in Tescos getting a cheap shop !
This incident would prove his lack of capacity.

This doesn’t ring right
I’d be going into the home and having a word with the manager, this needs bringing up 100%
You need to know, when he goes out if anyone else goes with him carer/patient ?
Does he ever bring any goods back to the care home either for his room or the home ?
£270 from Tesco on food is a lot, but is it food or from the cash machine at Tesco ?
If cash - what has he done with it?
Can you go through he’s online bank and look for any other similar transactions?
You need an explanation?

Also I’d be going into that Tesco ( unless it WAS the cash machine) and asking for cctv on that date and can you go through it with them to see what happened.

Agree it looks very dodgy. I second calling the Police. I would also revisit the issue of his capacity and see if you can get an active POA.

It’s not ethical or professional for them to accept a large amount of stuff like this. Have you spoken to the manager about it?

Don't get hung up on the legality issue - let the police worry about that. Tell them, and they'll investigate.

a POA can’t be triggered anyway until your father is formally declared as u fit to make his own financial choices

That's not true for the newer LPOAs for finance. It is for the health and welfare LPOA, and I think for the older EPOAs, but a finance LPOA can be used at any point after registration even if the person still has capacity.

I doubt they are at all

Sounds like someone is scamming him out of his money to be honest

If he is now living in a care home then the care home have overall responsibility for his care and well being.
He should absolutely NOT be allowed to leave the home unaccompanied as it is clear he is not safe and this is the reason he is now in the care home.
I would be raising this with the manager as a major safeguarding issue.
They need to be stepping up and protecting him otherwise what is the point of him being there.
I’d be asking what he has done with the £270 worth of goods from Tesco as well?

How on earth is the care home OK with him heading off to town solo and coming back late at night if he's a falls risk?

Obviously capacitous adults can do what they like but how are they managing that? Does he have a personal alarm?

Have him checked for onset dementia. My dad was like that, he knew what money was but he had lost capacity to understand that they run out. He used to spend loads on gifts for friends, he gave money away as gifts as well “because they looked good”. If asked, he would reply correctly as to what money is used for etc. At the start of dementia it’s very hard to identify that someone doesn’t have capacity.