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Elderly parents

Power of Attorney - can someone explain how they work

21 replies

womananddog · 15/02/2025 09:50

My parents set of POA some time ago. They were the main attorney for each other and I was named as the replacement - my father has since died. I can find the original POA for finance for my mother but not the Health and Social Care, As the POA was registered can I get a replacement from somewhere? Also i am not clear how the POA is invoked if it is needed.

OP posts:
diddl · 15/02/2025 10:34

I think it is "invoked" as soon as all paperwork is signed & returned.

Is there anything useful on here?

https://www.gov.uk/power-of-attorney

P00hsticks · 15/02/2025 12:39

Is this a 'Lasting' Power Of Attorney or an 'Enduring' one ? The former replaced the latter a while back. I seem to recall that there was only a single document for an EPA and you didn't have to register it straight away, only when it was needed.

There are two types of LPA - 'Finance & Property' and Health & Welfare' and they are registered automatically with the Office of Public Guardian as part of the application process.

I believe EPAs are still valid if created before the introduction of LPA's, although I have heard that as the years pass some organisations are less familiar with dealing with them.

Marshbird · 15/02/2025 12:53

Does your mum have mental capacity? If so you have more options now. Sounds like, as another poster states, your parents did enduring POA before law was changed, as there was only one type back then.

if mum does have mental capacity, I’d encourage you to see solicitor asap. Ask about revoking Enduring POA and switching to LPOA with both set up for mum. She also has way more flexibility giving you powers to certain things as and when, like doing her banking for her if all the computer stuff gets way too much. You can then invoke the full LPOA only if and when needed.

obvoisuly if mum doesn’t now have mental capacity, there’s no real point trying to switch even if you could, sadly. The only alternative then is to apply for a “deputyship” to office of guardianship. You really only should do that as last resort. It is expensive and hard to set up, it then requires an annual fee and over site by OOG every year it is needed for. Really don’t want to do that, and given there is a EPOA is probably unnecessary.

our DD died of Lewy body dementia. He was “only” really ill for 2 years, and my eldest sibling didn’t need to invoke the full LPOA as he had been managing dads finance and house for years anyway under the restricted rights DD had already given him, (he had his own cards and login to dads banks) and it didn’t change. Would have been needed if his house would have had to be sold etc. we didn’t need the health LPOA either as he was sectioned and given a “end of life pathway” very shortly into his obvious illness, and “nearest relative” piece came into play around his nursing and medical needs anyway . But it as always a relief knowing we could invoke both, fully, if and when needed.

Frankley · 15/02/2025 13:24

It is very useful to know , apart from bank details, what savings accounts etc and when they mature of relatives when you hold the LPA.
If relative is not able to deal with renewals or necessary withdrawals (eg for care or care home payments) it is much better to be prepared.
Get relative to make a list with account numbers, they don't need to show it to anyone until it becomes necessary to do so.

MysterOfwomanY · 15/02/2025 14:09

https://publicguardian.blog.gov.uk/2024/02/13/your-questions-answered-using-your-lpa/

Look for "I have lost my LPA and need a new copy? "

In general the link given in the first reply should be useful too.

unsync · 15/02/2025 14:40

If it is an EPA, you will need to now also have a LPA for Health & Welfare. As long as your mother still has capacity, this is a fairly straightforward thing to arrange (have done exactly this with my aged parent).

With hindsight, I would probably have superceded the EPA with an LPA for Finances too, as you get a registration number from OPG which makes the administration of the PoAs much easier and simpler. The EPA has proved to be a PITA to register with all the relevant organisations.

NetZeroZealot · 15/02/2025 17:00

Can I ask what the value of the Health & Welfare POA is? I have recently registered with my parents' GP to have access to their health info (they required a signed letter of authority). What more does the Health POA give you, I'm struggling to see how it would be used. Thanks.

P00hsticks · 15/02/2025 19:15

NetZeroZealot · 15/02/2025 17:00

Can I ask what the value of the Health & Welfare POA is? I have recently registered with my parents' GP to have access to their health info (they required a signed letter of authority). What more does the Health POA give you, I'm struggling to see how it would be used. Thanks.

My mothers surgery wanted to see the PoA before they would speak to me ...

Lulabellez · 15/02/2025 19:19

If it is completely lost you can buy a copy for £35.
Guessing LPAs as Epas don’t cover Health and welfare. EPAs can only be registered once the person begins to lose mental capacity.

Lulabellez · 15/02/2025 19:20

NetZeroZealot · 15/02/2025 17:00

Can I ask what the value of the Health & Welfare POA is? I have recently registered with my parents' GP to have access to their health info (they required a signed letter of authority). What more does the Health POA give you, I'm struggling to see how it would be used. Thanks.

Making decisions on behalf of someone if they lose capacity. Such as where they live or health care decisions.

Badbadbunny · 15/02/2025 19:23

NetZeroZealot · 15/02/2025 17:00

Can I ask what the value of the Health & Welfare POA is? I have recently registered with my parents' GP to have access to their health info (they required a signed letter of authority). What more does the Health POA give you, I'm struggling to see how it would be used. Thanks.

If they've lost capacity, i.e. diagnosed with dementia, then the GP will know that and they won't accept a signed authority letter as she'd be deemed to be incapable of giving consent. That's when the POA comes into it's own. It's what happened with our MIL. She got the GP's diagnosis of dementia some time ago, and then when she got worse and we tried giving them their standard consent/authority letter, it was rejected by the surgery as they cross checked it against their records showing the dementia diagnosis! We had a devil's own job doing anything with the GP surgery on her behalf - the best we could do was attend appointments with her so that we could be involved with the conversation and hear what the GP was saying/advising - they certainly wouldn't talk to us at all without her being present in the absence of a POA.

Lulabellez · 15/02/2025 19:23

womananddog · 15/02/2025 09:50

My parents set of POA some time ago. They were the main attorney for each other and I was named as the replacement - my father has since died. I can find the original POA for finance for my mother but not the Health and Social Care, As the POA was registered can I get a replacement from somewhere? Also i am not clear how the POA is invoked if it is needed.

No need to do anything to invoke them other than show to relevant organisations.

2010Aussie · 15/02/2025 19:26

NetZeroZealot · 15/02/2025 17:00

Can I ask what the value of the Health & Welfare POA is? I have recently registered with my parents' GP to have access to their health info (they required a signed letter of authority). What more does the Health POA give you, I'm struggling to see how it would be used. Thanks.

I made the decision not to have the Health and Welfare POA for my DM - although I do have the financial one which is very necessary. I too registered with her GP to be able to access her health info. She is now in residential care and I trust health and social care professionals to act in her best interests. There are regular meetings to discuss her welfare and I have never been in a situation where I can't put my point of view across. I talk to my DM about her wishes and needs and these are represented.

NetZeroZealot · 15/02/2025 19:31

Badbadbunny · 15/02/2025 19:23

If they've lost capacity, i.e. diagnosed with dementia, then the GP will know that and they won't accept a signed authority letter as she'd be deemed to be incapable of giving consent. That's when the POA comes into it's own. It's what happened with our MIL. She got the GP's diagnosis of dementia some time ago, and then when she got worse and we tried giving them their standard consent/authority letter, it was rejected by the surgery as they cross checked it against their records showing the dementia diagnosis! We had a devil's own job doing anything with the GP surgery on her behalf - the best we could do was attend appointments with her so that we could be involved with the conversation and hear what the GP was saying/advising - they certainly wouldn't talk to us at all without her being present in the absence of a POA.

Thanks for your perspective. But my DP both have capacity at the moment so it’s not comparable is it? I’m trying to understand what extra help POA for health would give me. Already have POA for financial affairs.

NetZeroZealot · 15/02/2025 19:33

Lulabellez · 15/02/2025 19:20

Making decisions on behalf of someone if they lose capacity. Such as where they live or health care decisions.

So who makes those decisions without POA if they have no capacity? not next of kin?

NetZeroZealot · 15/02/2025 19:34

P00hsticks · 15/02/2025 19:15

My mothers surgery wanted to see the PoA before they would speak to me ...

Yes but mine have said a letter of authority is acceptable- hence me wondering if I need the Health POA?

Badbadbunny · 15/02/2025 19:42

NetZeroZealot · 15/02/2025 19:34

Yes but mine have said a letter of authority is acceptable- hence me wondering if I need the Health POA?

If you've got capacity, then yes a letter of authority or their form signed is good enough, so it had to be lodged before you lose capacity. Once you've lost capacity, you lose the legal ability to do it. A POA can be set up beforehand, but activated once you've lost capacity, so is more useful as you can't possibly foresee when you'll lack capacity. It could be a gradual matter like dementia where you'd have months or years to put in place before you formally lost capacity, where you'd have time, or it could happen literally overnight if, say, you had a stroke!

womananddog · 15/02/2025 20:29

Thank you everyone - this has been really helpful! She would still be considered to have capacity but gets confused and forgets to do things.

I have registered the financial POA with the bank but didn't ask for a card for her account so I will look into that as at the moment, I have to go to her house and pay with her card there. I am most worried about Health and Social Care POA, which I can't find, from the thread it seems that I might be able to pay for a replacement.

Another question - how do you register the POA with utility companies and insurers? At the moment, no-one will let me deal directly with accounts on her behalf.

OP posts:
2010Aussie · 16/02/2025 16:04

NetZeroZealot · 15/02/2025 19:33

So who makes those decisions without POA if they have no capacity? not next of kin?

The Local Authority have a Public Guardianship role if there is no Next of Kin.

NetZeroZealot · 16/02/2025 16:21

2010Aussie · 16/02/2025 16:04

The Local Authority have a Public Guardianship role if there is no Next of Kin.

Thanks - my question was not well worded. If there is a Next of Kin, but no Health POA, doesn't the Next of Kin get to make decisions anyway if a person has lost capacity?

Shellingbynight · 16/02/2025 16:27

@womananddog
You have to contact each company individually and tell them you have POA. They will then tell you the procedure, generally they want you to send a certified copy, either in the post or electronically. Do NOT ever send out the original. (My mother's solicitor kept the original and sent me certified copies.)

Are you sure a H&W POA was actually done? My mother only did finance.

It was not a problem not having H&W, I dealt with all her care (and with various medical staff) over many years without it. They dealt with me as NOK. So yes @NetZeroZealot that is what happens.

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