It's started already - flying monkeys

[InkHeart2024]

DM died in October. She was wonderful- too good for my dad but she loved him. They were together 50 years. My dad is complicated, at times emotionally abusive, manipulative and mildly narcissistic. Benign as they go but still. I have 3 siblings. One of them suffered most with dad growing up, 2 are golden children (most like mum). Since mum died GC2 has stayed for extended periods with him and provided a lot of support which I'm grateful for. I've been as supportive as I could, but for my MH can't spend much time with dad. GC1 has spent a fair bit of time with him too. I hosted Christmas and dad stayed too long and ruined it for me by criticising my husband which really upset him. Since then I have spoken briefly to GC1 about visiting and we agreed we would visit together which he was pleased with as he doesn't have a car at the moment so I can drive. But I messaged him this morning to arrange a date and he's being dismissive and uncommunicative. I know what has happened. He was with dad last weekend and he's pulled the guilt and sympathy card and made him feel like I am being a crap daughter. He will have badmouthed my DH and blamed him for not immediately getting over his behaviour without any apology and blamed him for not letting me visit or something completely wrong like that.

i have booked myself some therapy sessions starting in 2 weeks because i am utterly preoccupied with my guilt and resentment. I feel responsible for my dad's feeling and deep in the fog. I also fear dreadfully losing my relationships with my siblings. And I knew that disagreements would be coming over how much we all do/don't do to look after dad. I am just so sad that my closest brother is stonewalling me as a punishment for not toeing the line. He will have no idea what's he's doing, that's the upsetting thing. And I'm on my own, as I don't want to talk to DH about it any more. I don't want to entrench him in his position of disliking my father any more than he already does.

I am not asking for advice really and I need to talk it through in therapy but I just want to get it out. I keep shouting in my head 'it's my life' to drown out the critical voice of my dad that keeps popping in at all moments. And the kicker of course is that I love my dad. I know his faults better than most but he also has good points and, well, he's my dad. I would never want to go NC or even LC. I just need to find a way to go forward with some boundaries, and I'm flailing. And I need to speak to my siblings all together at some point and I know it's going to be a horrible conversation. Thanks for reading if you got this far 🌷

No advice but empathy and a hand hold - it's tough how these family wounds get opened in the wake of an already sad bereavement. 🤗

I applaud your understanding that your brother won't know he's being played - it can be too easy to react to siblings out of childhood patterns. I see my own narc DM manipulating my brother, getting him to carry out her imaginary feuds and snits - she did it to me as a teenager - but then she just forgets about it when it suits her and it's left festering between us because he doesn't understand she's moved on.

It's triangulation, and the only way to win is not to play, if possible. Decide independently what is right for you and how much you are prepared to do, and calmly stick to that, without feeling the need to justify it to anyone. From my experience, you will get bad vibes whether you bust your hump or you do nothing, so you may as well not overdo it. Act according to your own honour and your own sense of self-preservation and you won't go far wrong!

See, I've tried to give advice after all... 😄 I hope some others will be along soon with their take on things. But solidarity! ✊

Very gently, OP, be kind to yourself. You don’t need to take on such a big role. Let DF muddle along and find his own solutions.

PS excellent move to get therapy. Might I also suggest keeping a journal - just finding 20 or 30 mins a day to write out what's bothering you, what your feelings are - it's a great release, a good tool for therapy and can really help to go back and see things written in intensity with the benefit of space.

I speak to my DH about my family, and he can be helpful in clarifying their behaviour and letting me vent, but he can also work himself into righteous indignation on my behalf, which is less helpful. Share, but share wisely.

Thank you! I really appreciate it. I'm so glad I came on here instead of the group chat. I do feel a conversation will be needed at some point but I think I need to explore it in therapy first.

I just keep having memories of my mum crying after some episode of him being horrible, or her telling me she should have left him years ago - and trying to reconcile that with the person who everyone else seems to think is the most important one in this family. I think they are managing their grief by trying to manage his. But I can't forget. And I know she was happy with him on the whole and loved him, and wouldn't want me to be dwelling on the bad times. And I will love and support him for her sake if not his. But you're right. I have to draw my lines and stick to them. And sadly he fucked things up badly when he criticised my DH. There was no need. And honestly I think it was a loyalty test. And he's not going to win that game.

Thank you. This is very good advice. It's interesting seeing my family through DH's eyes. As someone with a bad childhood who is NC with most of his family and who has had a lot of therapy he has a unique take! I don't need him getting angry on my behalf. And selfishly I want him to be able to tolerate spending short periods with my dad in future.

You feel guilt because your dad has pushed you into the parent role making you feel responsible for his emotional well being. In a healthy family it would be the opposite and your parents would take care of your emotional needs. It’s ok to keep feeling guilty, but take the time to appreciate how back to front the family dynamic is and that nobody wants to change it.

I suggested the journalling because I can see you're someone who is good at extrapolating and laying out patterns in writing.

Re your Mum, please remember he was her choice, and her life was her choice, and as their child you had/have no place in the trials and dissatisfactions of their marriage. You'll have to let that resentment on her behalf go, you can't retro-punish your father for that, nor use it for justification for not dancing attendance on him.

This is about the relationship between you and him. Don't get muddled with enmeshment.

Thank you all 🙏🏽 I am so grateful for you reading and responding. It's all such helpful advice.

Therapy is a really good idea. You will have all kinds of conflicting feelings and emotions and a good therapist can help you unravel the mess. But it can really take time and you have to be very gentle with yourself.

Know that you don't owe your dad anything. Your life belongs to YOU. You are a fully autonomous person in charge of your own choices.

Don't let your dad or your siblings bully you. You don't owe them an explanation either.

Thank you 🙏🏽

You’re still choosing though. In wanting your DH to tolerate him for your sake, you are choosing your dad again. You’re saying DH should suffer a little bit of your dad, instead of a big bit.

If your brother isn’t responding that’s fine. Wait until he does. You don’t have to chase.

Your family dance to his tune, orbit around him. Let them get on with it, it’s working for them. You don’t have to. It doesn’t work for you.

Phrases like-
Let me know how you get on.
I can’t do that.
I have another commitment that day.
Send him my love.

And don’t answer any passive aggressive comments. They don’t need an answer unless they are an actual sensible question. Don’t feel obliged to justify yourself.
If challenged, or sorry I didn’t realise that was a question/needed an answer etc.

You need to refocus what you orbit around.

Been where you are. Save yourself the anguish and heartache which could go on for years. Your DF doesn’t care about hurting others.
Go NC.

You're right. You absolutely are. I know it's selfish of me to want DH to tolerate him when he's behaved badly. I just can't currently talk myself out of that thought.

I'm never going to do that, but thank you. I need to find a way to have a relationship that is on my terms. I managed it well before mum died (after years of trial and error) and now I have to work out how to do it again.

I understand that my suggestion isn’t your style but I speak from experience. The situation didn’t just affect me, was horrendous and looking back I should have put down very firm boundaries right at the start. I didn’t as you haven’t. I ended up where you are. Don’t value others more than you value yourself and your immediate family.

No, but it's fair to expect him to support you, as you would/surely have supported him. But independently, he shouldn't have to tolerate disrespect.

My DH sees my family as occasionally as I do - once or twice a year (though they live quite close). He calmly asserts himself in the face of rudeness and disrespect, as he has the right to do - in fact, he understands that better than I do! (When he met my mother, she said something insulting to me, and he said with surprise 'Gosh! That was rude!' I hadn't realised until that point that I didn't have to accept that treatment. It was wonderful, and the start of my healing!)

(And my mother was gobsmacked and backtracked like hell, because no one had ever told HER she couldn't attack her kids with impunity like that).

Consider speaking to your sibling start with "Hi, guess Dad has been bad mouthing me & DH as usual when you visited. Would you like us to go together next time or are you going to make your own plans?"

Hope the therapy goes well

I was reading through the whole thread and it's interesting to see how you have talked yourself down, reasoning through the perspectives and suggestions of other posters. It seems to me that you have a pretty sensible, measured view of where you need to get to with your father and also how much of this to allow into your marriage.

The more difficult question is your future relationship with your siblings. I'm in a similar position - widowed, narcissistic mother and two younger siblings who definitely find my arms-length handing of DM to be challenging and I know she vents about me to them. I try and brush it off with phrases like "Mum and I probably have quite different perspectives on that conversation" or "you know Mum, she does sometimes try and play people off against each other. I don't know if it's on purpose but I'm not going to get sucked into that for a load of nonsense". I just won't have a heavy conversation about her personality or mood. I'm here for the practical stuff.

Thanks. I took the approach with DB today of being breezy and when he did eventually reply to my message with an agreed date I just confirmed it politely. I also spoke to dad for an hour for my weekly call (my chosen frequency, not his) and he was on good form so I feel lighter and less guilty at least for now. I dare say further conversation will need to be had but right now I'm just trying to put all my feelings of guilt out of my mind and focus on my family.

It was the criticism of my DH that finally made me put in boundaries with my DM. He'd never done anything to warrant the criticism but I caught her out badmouthing him to her friends. I just won't stand for it now. I don't see her or speak to her unless she behaves herself.

Do you think you might be imagining the situation with your DB? You said you messaged him this morning about arranging a visit, then later (11am) that he was being dismissive and uncommunicative. But you hadn’t given him enough time to communicate! Then by mid afternoon you had your reply.

Thanks - it's possible. But I don't think so. He did reply to my message but the tone was just off and dismissive, then he didn't reply to my follow up for a few hours. I know him well and he's very gentle and a bit passive. His angry tone (which is rarely directed at anyone, me least of all) is noticeable but not overt. However thanks to this thread I decided not to let it get to me and ignored it.