Difficult Mother

[Sparsely]

My Dad has dementia. & is incontinent at night. He wears the pants but it often ends up with a mess.

My Mother (91) has reached the end of the road. She wants him to go into a home. She is not very understanding about the incontinence and shouts at him and doesn't help him sort it out the messes. He is doddery and very short sighted, so it's not easy.

Annual shortfall for care home is 50k (based on 50:50 share of income, mainly from his pension). They have a 900k house & 200k in savings. As he hasn't got capacity, my Mum should have power of attorney but hasn't registered it.

She doesn't want to move out of her home and won't share the savings (which are in her name. mainly inheritance from her family. His inheritance went on every day expenses. She never worked, so finances were shared. She won't even pay for incontinence pants, let alone care homes or help in the home. So we're stuck.

I genuinely don't know what to do. How can I access the money pay for the help my Dad needs? She is quite slippery / manipulative and sabotages any efforts to help / intervene. She seems quite reasonable..then goes off the rails.

Any advice? How can I protect my Dad and get him the care he needs? (I work in a demanding job to pay my mortgage. I can't care myself . I am probably not suited to it either).

How much does he have in his own name, and how much (excluding the house) in joint names?

If A plus half of B is under £23k, it becomes the LA's responsibility to pay for care - they'll need to assess whether that's visiting carers or residential. If it's over £23k he needs to pay until it runs down to that level. You cannot use your mum's assets or the house while she's living in it.

Either way, ask for a social services assessment.

And the income.split may not be 50:50. Especially if the split of assets is unequal.

How much savings are in his name? You can only use those to pay for his care. It sounds as though neither DP is coping or happy.

Does your DF have a SW and have you requested a Care Needs Assessment? You'll need to be there during that so that they are aware of the incontinence and the need for care 24 hours.

Your DM needs a Carer's Assessment too. Nobody should have to be doing 24 hour care at 91.

In the interim, has your DF been referred to the incontinence team? And have you called his SW and let them know that the current care arrangements are unsustainable and are breaking down?

I woukd start to look at local care homes too. Don't fall for the fancy ones, your DF won't get any use out of cinemas or gin bars. Our DMIL was very, very well well looked after in the local, cheapest care home paid for by the Council.

Don't fall for the fancy ones, your DF won't get any use out of cinemas or gin bars. Our DMIL was very, very well well looked after in the local, cheapest care home paid for by the Council. This. My Dad is being very well cared for in a nursing home (not care home) charging less than £5000pm, and since nursing homes are considerably more expensive than care homes, your £50k pa shortfall suggests you’re not looking at the cheapest care homes.

If a home looks likely, an assessment should be done. I might be wrong, but it's only your Dad's income, and savings in his name or half of savings in joint names that can be used. If the property is in joint names, the local authority can put a charge on the property, your Mum can stay in her home for as long as she wants, but on sale anything up to half could be taken for the care home fees (depending on what excess has accumulated).

So her home and savings are secure, but if there's less income coming in to pay the bills, ie food, utilities etc, she'll have to pay out of her own pension and savings.

As pp have said, you need to know what assets and income are in your fathers name as these are the only ones that will be expected to contribute to his care costs.

A jointly owned house will likely be discounted from the assessment if your mother continues to live there. But a charge may be put on your father’s share, recoverable at a later date.

if your father has a large pension and your mother does not, she may be entitled to continue to receive some of it. Otherwise it goes into the pot with his assets.

you and your mother need to arrange for your father to have a care assessment. This will determine which level of care your father needs. It might not be care home - you don’t say whether he’s already got carers coming?

if the care assessment decides he needs 24/7 care, your father will pay the fees until he has only £23k savings left. After that the local authority should kick in.

the interim, has your DF been referred to the incontinence team? And have you called his SW and let them know that the current care arrangements are unsustainable and are breaking down?

yes to the above as well. I don’t blame your mum for being fed up with the situation.

Thanks for all your input. To answer the points:

• This was definitely her choice, from talking to the doctor, I understand she refused all offers of help and thought she could cope. She is someone who needs to be in the driving seat and finds accepting help difficult. But no one is forcing her to do this, and I am trying to offer help again to get help on her terms. I have I have now found some carers who could come in, but I am blocked by the financial issue: she wants 50% of the income (which is fair) and 100% of the assets (less so). She aso has power of attorney but she won't register.

• we live in the home counties, everything is very expensive: I haven't found any cheaper care homes than £1400 a week for high needs which my Mother could feasibly visit my Father . I will ask further afield to see if I can find something cheaper.

• I don't know if my Father has a social worker or has been referred to the incontinence team or if he has had a care needs assessment : they like to keep their privacy, so I am in the dark. But many thanks. I now know the questions to ask.

As indicated above, you need to know who the assets / income actually belong to because this will be the basis on which any assessment will be made.

If the pension income is in your father’s name, then it is considered to be his and available for his care. However, if your mother depends on this income she can apply to keep some of it back for her own needs.

If the property is jointly owned, then 50% of the value will be considered to be available for your father’s needs. Again, if your mum continues to live in the house it should be discounted from the assessment.

notwithstanding the above, it sounds like you are going to be self funding and can make your own choices, at least until your fathers assets run down to £23k or less.

good luck op.

Just adding: if savings accounts are in your mother’s name, they won’t be taken into account. If they are joint, they will be split 50:50. Anything in your fathers name will be seen as his.

Somewhat nuclear option, but you could ask the court to remove her as attorney if she's not doing the job of looking after your fathers best interests.

Agree with other posters money in your mum's name is not counted in the means test. You need a social care assessment. Social services will place a charge on the house but only repayable once your mother dies or goes into care herself

@Sparsely if your mum hasn't registered the power of attorney is it still valid?? Didn't think it was until it was registered?? Can you ask to see w copy?? Understand she might be reluctant to show you. But definitely push for a care assessment x

Thanks @shellyleppard I am going over tomorrow. She confirmed it is lasting power of attorney (not ordinary)) . I will check if it is registered. We are trying to apply for Attendance Allowance to help pay for some care mornings and evenings. I think we can do a direct debit from their joint account which would dodge the PoA issue anyway.

@NoBinturongsHereMate I suggested that to my husband . He said I was nuts, so let's hope it doesn't to that

I am so surprised by these answers: so income is joint (even when it has only been earned by one person) , houses that are joint but savings are personal.

The thread has made me see maybe I am being a bit unreasonable, so thank you.

The thread has made me see maybe I am being a bit unreasonable, so thank you

It does sound as though she's massively struggling.

I would ask her about a SW, no problem if tgeee isn't one or if she doesn't know, your DF's GP Surgery might be able to help.

Filling in the AA Form is quite easy but time consuming. Your DM will need to provide things like your DF's NI Number and bank details. You'll need around an hour minimum.

You can request the Care Needs Assessment here and there's information on a Carers Assessment heree*.

Does your DM need help sorting out the LPAA*?

And it's a sensitive subject but have they prepaid for their funerals? If your DF, or DM for that matter, have savings over £23k it's worth them prepaying at this point to take the savings down.

Your poor DM sounds absolutely desperate

Oh and your DF's GP should be able to refer to the continence service.

I would email them as emailing is traceable. Outline what's going on, ask for the referral and use the phrase "want to avoid a hospital admission". That usually makes them listen

I imagine that if your dad has a pension in his name only, he that this will be treated as his income to pay for the care home. Ie your mum won’t be able to have any of it.

Not necessarily true re the pension in his name. If it needs some of his pension to be able to afford the utility bills and council tax on the property then that would be taken into account. Ie if whatever pension she's entitled to isn't enough to cover that and provide her with living expenses.

I am so surprised by these answers: so income is joint (even when it has only been earned by one person) , houses that are joint but savings are personal.

No, there isn't a blanket rule for these things.

The default starting point is that income is personal, but if one of the ccouple doesn't have sufficient income of their own to support themselves it may be shared. Not necessarily 50:50. I think social services would make this decision.

Houses are joint if they are owned that way. But even if they are only in one name the other half of the couple may have a right to continue living there. And if they do, the value of the house is discounted in calculating eligibility for care funding. If jointly owned and the spouse remains living in it, there would not usually be a charge placed on it. But there are some circumstances in which one can be.

Savings are personal if they are in a personal account. If they are in a joint account, they are counted as half belonging to each person.

I hope your visit isn't too difficult today @Sparsely

oh dear