Managing mum by moving her close ?

[Geekylover]

hello all, I hope you can make sense of my complicated situation. I will try to summarise as best I can
mum had numerous falls sept-dec 2023. As usual the hospital couldn’t wait to discharge her and she ended up very weak at home after every hospital admission resulting in further falls. It was incredibly stressful and I ended up under severe mental stress and had to give up work.
I asked for a placement after the last fall to give her a chance to recover and she ended up in care home which kept getting extended . We then found ourselves in a long term care home position( nobody told us, it just happened!) and I have been billed for her care for the past few months which has left me in a dire financial position. Mum owns her house hence the position. I have been unable to sell the house as after a major operation I have been floored for five months.
as I can no longer fund the home I decided to request to take mum home and just try my best to help with looking after her but she house is quite far and I have my own family. I keep getting told she needs another care assessment and we are on a three month waiting list.
I think the best thing to do is sell the house and get her a small place near me where I can look after her along with carers. That way I’m with my family and close enough to help out. This works now I don’t have a job anyway. Now I have read that if you move to a different area which she will be, your care assessment is passed to the new authority but we don’t have one as we are on waiting list. Has anyone experienced this? Should I just move her out and not wait for them? Three months of fees i can not do. It seems wrong to me but I feel stuck.
mum has dementia and her mobility has massively declined in care home but she isn’t happy and I need to do the right thing for her. Any advice appreciated , thanks all xx

Sorry you're in such a position. It's difficult for you. You shouldn't be paying the fees though. If she has a house then if no one else is involved they can put a charge on the house and get the fees once it is sold. You need to speak to the social work department urgently about this.
I'm not sure about the ins and outs of moving areas and I should go to sleep now too. I'm off to look after my dad for a bit as he's about to come out of hospital. Look after yourself

Hi I did ask about deferred fees but they ignored me. I get the bills as I am POA. They said it’s her responsibility but as I’m POA I get the bill. She can’t pay it in her position so it’s down to me to organise

Good luck with dad. X

Thank you x

It's up to you to organise as poa but from her funds not yours. If she doesn't have the funds she doesn't have them and they will need to wait. Ugh it's so difficult and frustrating and takes ages to get answers. You need to get cross with them or maybe involve her MP! I have POA for my dad and he has plenty of funds for some care at home but I just dread working with government agencies. I worked for the NHS for 37 years too and it's all just so grim and badly managed.

As others have said you need to stop paying from your own funds snd let them stew.

POA doesn't mean you pay for things yourself. It means you have access to the person's money to pay for things - whether care home fees, food or toiletries. Anything they'd need.

If they don't have money in a bank account to pay the fees then SS will have to pay for the care home and recoup the money when the house is sold. You should also get the money you've spent refunded through the house sale.

You may also find she miraculously moves up the waiting list for a care assessment once SS are having to pay for the home! At the moment they don't have any incentive for getting on with it!

Good luck, it sounds horrendous. I definitely wouldn't move her closer and take on the care yourself though.

A lot depends on the value of her home and any savings/pension.

Three options

• permanent residential care, which will have to be funded from the sale of her home, whether that’s where she currently is or somewhere near you. That makes her a self-funded so no assessment needed from social services, you choose and pay for any home you want anywhere.
• move her to an assisted living flat with carers + you caring for her near you. Depending on the cost of the flat vs the value of her home she may still be self-funding so again, no assessment needed, you just get on with it
• she moves back into her own home with state-funded carers (as she owns a home but no savings); sounds as though social services have already ruled this out

It sounds as if she already needs residential care; many people with dementia do end up needing to go into a home for the final stretch (sorry) so for me it’s a no brainer - sell her home, pay yourself back the care fees you’ve ‘loaned’ her, and move her closer to you if funds allow.

Oh dear, you've had quite a time of it. How much care is your mum needing now and how often are you going? You may need to tell them you are stopping care on the basis of your own health problems. There is often an expectation that you'll do it unless you refuse and it may come to that.

Have you asked for the local authority where she currently lives to do a care assessment, or the one you want to move her to? I moved my dad to a care home nearer me but the assessment was done by the authority where he then lived.

Is your mum's dementia on record as a medical diagnosis? I say that because sometimes it's obvious but if you haven't gone through those channels it can be a problem.

Does your mum have any savings in the bank? Presumably not because as POA you could use those to pay the fees. It sounds as if all the communication about this has been pretty poor.

Hi thanks I did call SS and they did say the possibility of moving her closer was there but again said I was on a waiting list for a social worker of at least 12 weeks. Meanwhile the bills still keep coming. She could move home with state funded carers which is what I am now favouring but she is still far away and agin they said waiting list. Meanwhile,I’m in limbo and tempted to just take her home but she needs the carers so I can’t

Yes have been through it all. Originally asked care assessment in July but they made excuses and I said I was having an op and they let it slide, when I asked again last month they said waiting list again.

@Geekylover do you have poa for finance or just health??? If you have one for poa could you pay the bills that way? Also ask social services for a pay assessment? They should be helping financially. When my mum was alive they were paying 80 per cent of the care home bill. Good luck x

Hi I know I’m not obliged to take on fees but have been trying to bridge the gap until something happens which seems to be in their own time.
she is entitled to heavily subsidised care in her own home due to lack of savings but she need an area assessment.
moving her closer does not mean I would take on care but she would be closer and I could,help. Where she is I’m asked to attend every hospital appointment with her ( or pay a hefty price for a carer to go with her). So closer would be good for us both

I’m going to be quite frank. You are not well enough to care for your mum, even with carer support. She needs to be in a residential home, ideally near you. Stop paying for the current home (the assessment will happen sharpish when you stop paying). Ring social services today and explain the situation, that she needs residential care and that you will sell the house to pay for it. Do not bring her to you or ss will wash their hands of her (believe me, been there, done that). If you can get a move to a home near you, you can then be a daughter to her, not her carer!

I am not sure about this but I think I've previously read that if the elderly person has dementia and it is advanced enough to need residential care this is considered differently to usual care home fee arrangement. Usual care home resident with the means required to pay, but only after house is sold. For those with dementia nursing care required and mother not required to pay. I don't know if this correct but others on this site might be able to clarify.

A friend of ours is renting her mother's house out. This covers part of the fees. When her mother passes away the house will be sold and the rest of the fees will be paid. I mention this because this way of managing means that less of the house value will be required for fees later. I know this has its own problems ...getting the house ready ext but it is a thought. If you have to sell it also takes quite a bit of getting a house ready. Hope you find a solution you can all cope with op. It's very hard. 💐

Hi thanks for reply. Before mum went into this placement she was at home with carers. It worked well apart from falls. When I spoke to Ss was told an assessment for carers would be needed to return home which is what I’m waiting for. The move closer to me is not so I care for her, just so she is closer. I have never been responsible for her care but the distance between us takes its toll. If she has a care assessment that would go with her to new authority. They wouldn’t just forget it because I’m nearby. I’m sure they can’t do that. Moving to a home closer is also an option but the conversation always ends with waiting list. 🤷‍♀️

Thanks for this. I have considered renting but yes it would on,y cover half the fees and can be a pain as we would also need to do tax returns etc. her dementia is not advanced and has not met continuing care criteria ( if that’s what you meant for funding )

In England and Wales continuing health care funding is only where there are complex needs that require frequent nursing decisions. Nursing care of itself does not impact funding and the majority of dementia care will not fall under CHC funding. As examples FIL got it because his cancer treatment made his diabetes and heart condition unstable so needed constant monitoring and treatment adjustments as necessary. MIL was severely disabled, paralysed, incontinent and non verbal, following a stroke but her care needs were stable so no CHC funding.

I am not sure about this but I think I've previously read that if the elderly person has dementia and it is advanced enough to need residential care this is considered differently to usual care home fee arrangement. Usual care home resident with the means required to pay, but only after house is sold. For those with dementia nursing care required and mother not required to pay. I don't know if this correct but others on this site might be able to clarify. No, this isn’t true. The vast majority of nursing home residents and many care home residents have dementia and those with means are expected to pay their way. They may be eligible for a “nursing contribution” which covers their access to nurses in the nursing home.

CHC is when the person’s care is funded by the NHS. It’s extremely difficult to get; you need to demonstrate that the person requires nursing decisions (not just nursing care) on a daily basis. This isn’t true of most people with dementia.

Yeah my dad didn't get CHC because for someone of his age he was pretty well other than the dementia. The bar is high.

Confused by this:
Before mum went into this placement she was at home with carers. It worked well apart from falls. When I spoke to Ss was told an assessment for carers would be needed to return home which is what I’m waiting for.

So you decided to move her out of the home because you couldn't pay the fees? You need to be a nuisance I'm afraid or nothing happens. Has your mum fallen again since being back home? The council should have offered you the deferred payment arrangement. But now I'd be ringing social services saying she is unsafe at home and needs an assessment urgently.

if you have PoA you are supposed to pay bills from your mothers funds, not your own.
i would contact social services for help.

There's no need for you to bridge the gap with the care home fees, it's for her own account to pay this, if there is money in it. If not then SS has to pay until the house is sold.

Similarly with being billed for a carer to go to hospital appointments. There's no need for you to go with her, especially as it's at a distance (I have POA for a distant relative in a CH and have never been to her hospital appointments). The home will send her with a carer, which is added to the bill, which SS pay until the house is sold.

If you pay for things or "help" eg with the appointments SS don't have an incentive to do anything and you'll just be left waiting for longer and longer.

Re getting the house sold. We found house clearance companies were fantastically helpful. They will keep to one side things like paperwork or photographs if asked, so you can go through things yourself, but will clear everything else to recycle, charity shop, auction or tip. That speeds things up as it's a lot quicker than doing it yourself.

Stop paying the fees! They are not your debts to pay.
If your mum has been assessed for long term residential care then moving her close to you into a flat with carers visiting is not likely to be successful and is an unrealistic option.
You need a meeting with the social worker to explain your current health issues therefore limitations in your role as POA in selling the house and let them help you come up with a solution.
Good luck

So sorry you are going through this, it's a bloody minefield and isn't helped by a massive lack of social workers - I haven't spoken to anyone recently who has a dedicated worker so there's no continuation of your case going on. I can only second what others are saying - stop paying the bills! This should help move you up the list for assessment. I'd think carefully about bringing her to you to care for, you could end up taking on more than you really should and will then end up in another battle to get more help later on. Be kind to yourself!

Thanks for all the replies. I do understand what you are saying about bringing her closer and possibly taking on too much. But with carers I think I could be there for other things, but I am aware it could go wrong and end up in a care home permanently