Acting as a Deputy, Court of Protection

[Thingamebobwotsit]

Can someone tell me what acting as a Deputy through the Court of Protection for a relative with Dementia, means?

Do you have to get involved in direct care delivery? Or can it just include things like managing finances at a distance? We live some distance from a relative and have been asked to step in. What I don't want to do, is to commit to being the person who is called out at all hours when it is a 4 hour round trip minimum, as we have other caring responsibilities to consider.

And do we need to consider getting legal advice to get this in place?

Thanks!

There are 2 types of deputyship Health and Welfare, and property and finances.

With the former you would be expected to be involved in care provision along with medical/ health decisions. EG choosing a Care provider
The latter is about ensuring financial security and adminstration for the estate.
So you would be responsible for managing payments for care provision, but not necessarily for appointing one

Thanks. And in the case of needing to sort care, who would be responsible if we just take on finances and property? This feels more doable at a distance and we would be happy to sign off on recommended care.

DH doesn't have Deputyship because - Thank God - his mother completed the POA forms before she became confused. She doesn't have dementia as far as we know, but gets extremely muddled and is in her 90s. Dh sorts out all care and all finances for her. We live a 6 hour drive away and visit twice a year.

Being responsible for care and welfare just allows you to make those decisions on behalf of your relative. It doesn't mean you have to physically provide the care. My MiL has a very good support package and, other than an occasional call, DH doesn't really do much. The finances are more complicated and take up more of his time, but it's all done from home.

You should read up on the financial one. Being a Deputy is more onerous than being an Attorney, although I assume that point has been passed. You need to keep accounts and prepare an annual report for the Court. I'm assuming you've already looked, but details are here: https://www.gov.uk/become-deputy/accounts-gifts-expenses

Thanks. Yes way past the point of PoA as they have refused repeatedly for the past 20 years to put this in place.

Have you had any experience of Deputyship? We have read all the web information but it doesn't give a sense of the actual level of onerous - ness or whether we can get support to do it.

A colleague was a court appointed deputy - it was more onerous than PoA (I do that) but he managed it without buying help.

If there is a lot of money in the estate you could probably pay an accountant to do the annual accounts but apart from being another irritating task my colleague said it wasn't that tricky.

If you don't take on health&welfare who will? It shouldn't involve doing direct care e.g if arrangements collapse and you are distant adult social care should step in (or this is why I would do for my oldie as I live distant) but as a HCP I think it's important that someone who knew the person has input into decision making e.g attitudes to end of life. I've been more pro-active in getting treatment stopped/ limited for those I love than anything else.

Mostly because as a doctor I see what is pointless and am not scared to raise limiting treatment with staff. I still remember as a very new doctor (probably 6 weeks in) wanting to start IV antibiotics on a very confused elderly lady whose son was a senior doctor. I thought he would be pleased. He was horrified "everyone has to die of something"

Deputy ship is very similar to POA. The difference is capacity at point of decision. Someone agrees POA when they have capacity, and it comes into play when that person lacks capacity. if someone lacks capacity with no POA in place, then another person applies for deputy ship.

its a decision making role not necessarily a hands on role.

you are taking on the role of making decisions for someone who has been assessed as lacking the capacity to make decisions for themself.

if you don’t want to do it, the LA will apply for deputyship. It’s not a quick process, can take many months.

Highly unlikely the court will appoint a health and welfare deputy, it only ever really happens in exceptional circumstances because health and welfare decisions are so personal that the normal stance is that the person themselves should appoint the LPOA they know would uphold their wishes and best interests.

Financial and property deputyships are much more common as they are clear cut, easily auditable and often necessary so that bills etc can still be paid. They are only required really though if someone has assets that require actual hands on management rather than just benefits/pensions that could be managed by a DWP appointee.

Thanks everyone this is super helpful.

@safeguardingsocialworker Can I be a bit cheeky and ask what would normally happen in the following circumstances?

I am also being told the relative in question has no food in the house and that we need to pay for regular food deliveries. Social services can cover food via the food bank for three days, but can't get food them thereafter. Is this normal?
I have had some dealings with social care in the past for other relatives but this is the first time we have had this request.

In practice we don't have access to the house, it is too far to drive weekly, can't guarantee the relative will open the door etc. Plus, I am not clear on how long any arrangements would need to be in place. Social care team are saying to keep the receipts and claim back once Deputyship is agreed but everything I read suggests this isn't guaranteed to reimburse us.

What would normally happen in these circumstances? Surely they wouldn't leave someone with no food in the house?

What has changed that means that however the relative was getting food or accessing their cash previously is no longer possible?

Why are adult social care involved?

You don't have to say yes to the local authority.... it's technically lawfully their problem to solve not yours until you become deputy and that is also absolutely optional.

Would the person agree to their card being used for a regular online shop? Will they have carers who would be able to put away shopping or perhaps help them order what's needed?

Thank you. I haven't asked these questions as was a bit taken aback by the request tbh. I will be speaking to the social worker again next week so can find out more then. It would make sense for the carers to coordinate, even if we order the food. As we have no means of getting the actual food into the house!

I'm a Deputy for Financial and Property Affairs for my adult son, who has a severe learning disability and is in a supported living placement. That's a very different context to your situation, but I can tell you a little bit about how the basic process works.

My son has no property, but does have a few thousand pounds of savings and receives benefits. I manage his bank account and any regular payments that need to be made and ensure his carers have access to funds to do his grocery shop (we use a prepaid card system - see below). I also manage everything with DWP, the Local Authority, Motability etc. And I have to send an annual report to the Court of Protection, with bank statements and explanations of any large transactions or major decisions that have been made. Nearly all of this is online and I don't find it a huge amount of work.

I would really recommend the prepaid card solution for grocery shopping. There is just one card, which is left in my son's flat and picked up by individual carers. I just top the card up from an app so it always has a bit of money on it - but I keep the balance low. And I can also see what has been spent in the app. You can ask carers to keep receipts if you want to check the detail. If you need to pay for it from your own money for now you should be able to claim it back once the Deputyship is set up - you are effectively lending money to your relative.

One other thing, do you know what bank your relative is with. It will be much easier to get online access to their account (once the Deputyship is in place) if you also have an account with that bank. I'm also PoA for my Mum - she is with a different bank to me and that's more of a pain than the deputyship tbh

@Thingamebobwotsit Not Deputyship, just PoA experience, fir several family members. I keep basic accounts anyway as I will also be Executrix so it makes that eventual task easier. I just know that whereas there's little, if any, oversight on Attorneys, there is more for Deputies and it is something to be aware of.

Deputy is more work than POA because of needing to provide annual accounts. Although it's a good idea for POA to keep receipts and records of what you're paying for in case it is ever queried. But there's no need to do anything hands on, it's more about making sure bills are paid and their wishes are abided by. It'll be very simple if they have one bank account, one pension and own a property outright with bills on direct debit. It'll be a lot more complicated if they have multiple bank accounts, shares, several sources of income and a rented/mortgaged property with bills paid on receipt.

Food shopping, I wouldn't get drawn into paying for it yourself, unless you wouldn't miss the money, you'll be out of pocket for quite a while even if you do claim it back eventually. Mostly if needed I've done online supermarket order or something like Wiltshire Farm Foods paid for using the elderly person's account (POA access) but that's when they've been there to receive it and capable of putting it away. Sometimes carers can receive and put away but I've always thought this could easily go wrong if the delivery or carer is running late. Be wary of SS trying to pass the buck and making you responsible for paying for and getting the food. Clearly something has gone wrong with how they normally shop and SS needs to sort it until you have the Deputyship.

I am a Financial Deputy for a relative without capacity. I would 100% recommend using a solicitor to get the Deputyship in place. I live about 4 hours away and try to visit every three months or so. I think it says that once a year is a recommended timeframe for visiting as a minimum. It is all on line so very easy and I manage the Direct Payments from the LA for my relatives care on line including managing emergency care needs. I don't think it is necessary to be close by at all no. I have found it very easy to take on the responsibility and don't find it onerous at all, I update the annual Deputy Report monthly and it takes max 5 mins. I am pretty organised and good on line and with admin though. My elderly father who was Deputy before me struggled with the admin because he doesn't work on line.

If the person is under a Deprivation of Liberty order (DOLs) they're meant to be visited monthly to check all is ok with that set up. But you don't need to do this yourself, a solicitor can be laid to do it.

That's just guidance for paid representatives (RPRs) under the DoLs amendment to the Mental Capacity act 2005.

It's irrelevant and entirely separate to any responsibilities held by LPOAs or court appointed deputyships

A relative tried to dump the DOLs visiting on me as I hold POA @SafeguardingSocialWorker so I felt it was worth mentioning as it isn't something you have to do as POA.

Thanks everyone. I have a call with the social worker next week so will pick this all up with them. It sounds like the admin involved is manageable, if a bit onerous.

So we are going to speak to a solicitor and also get some financial advice. We aren't in a position to end up being financially liable in the short or long term for putting things into place, although as I understand it ultimately we can claim a refund against the estate. This, I assume, is dependent on there being enough left within the estate, however and if care costs spiral there won't be anything.

Does anyone know if we can push this through even if the person is adamant they don't want it for their finances? Does it require extra assessment?

The only friends I have that have done this, have been in the position where their Deputyship has been for someone who recognised they needed support, even if they couldn't quite articulate why or on what.

I used a solicitor to get the Deputyship. The fees all in all with Court fees/psychiatric capacity assessment I think were about £2.5k. The Deputyship order has a paragraph specifically inserted by The Court of Protection stating I am allowed to claim these costs back off my relative which I do at a very small amount per month as they can afford. I have had to lend other amounts to my relative and each time I do I request permission from the Court of Protection first then attach proof of what I have spent on them and then how I am claiming it back. The helpdesk there is very very helpful and so long as you communicate with them everything is very easy. Obviously you cannot charge interest on any monies you may "lend".

OPG Lay Deputy Support I meant to say are the very helpful team who assist Deputies.