Dad won't give POA and keeps giving away all his money and is starving

[Optunia]

My dad is in his 80s and lives abroad (he's a foreign national but has a UK private pension from when he worked in the UK). He's always been super religious and given a lot of money away but as he's got older, he done this more and more to the point where he has no money to live off. We believed he was being scammed but he refused any assistance and said he was giving the money away willingly. Because he was starving, myself and my siblings shared paying food for him each month.

I flew him over for Xmas last year and had a conversation with him about him stopping giving money away because he has a very good pension and it's unfair that he expects us to pay for him whilst he's giving money to these chancers. We then stopped paying for food and he seemed to be managing.

Then his UK private pension stopped and this is the main money he is living off. They keep stopping it because he doesn't receive their mail and if he doesn't confirm he's still alive by post, they stop paying. He asked me if I could try and call them and I did and managed to sort it out but the pension provider said essentially this was a one off and if I wanted to help again, I needed to get POA. I spoke to my dad with the pension lady and he agreed I should get the POA so that we could make sure he carried on receiving his pension as they had repeatedly stopped it in past. I then arranged all the legal work and the lawyer had to speak to him directly to make sure this is what he wanted.

When the lawyer called, my dad told them that he didn't want the POA and I was pressurising him into it (which I wasn't) and I was horrified!! Luckily the lawyer knows me and knows I'm not like that but I was really pissed off that he did that.

The bottom line is that he doesn't want anyone messing with his finances because he wants to carry on giving away all his money (i think most of it is romance scams). He lives in a country where there is no social security so when he gives it all away, he has no money for food.

So really it's a WWYD - would you keep funding his food? I feel terrible at the thought of him starving but on the other hand, he absolutely refuses help (and no one will say he lacks capacity because he genuinely doesn't - he is choosing to do this).

It sounds like your hands are tied. He’s making his choice .
I sympathise as this is hugely frustrating!

Poor you

can you step back a bit? He is a grown man who is refusing POA, that is that

he is making his own choices

When my elderly dad made some decisions I did not think were good for him, I still left him to it as I had to keep telling myself he was a grown man making his own decisions, not a toddler. Ultimately you cannot help someone who refuses help.

as children of elderly parents this can be hard

thanks - yes you're right, he's an adult and making these choices. It just makes me so sad seeing him yet again fall for another bit of internet nonsense and then sit there wasting away as he can't even afford a bowl of soup but I guess you are right, he is choosing that outcome.

last time I spoke to him he told he had found a nice lady online who wanted to marry him - i said please don't give her money (because I have no doubt she was asking for money) and I could see him going quiet as I'm sure he's already done it! Argh!

A similar thing happened to a friend's mum. My friend reckons she gave away at least 80k to scammers. He spoke to her repeatedly and even got a police officer friend to come and talk to her but she wouldn't listen to anyone. In the end he moved in with her to be her carer and was able to intercept the mail and put a stop to it. The people that pray on the elderly like this are utter scum.

My friend's mum turned out to be in the early stages of dementia and was very determined to keep paying these people. I'm not sure what you can do to stop it if you are physically in another country.

Thanks - yes I'm sure it is early stages of dementia too as it's one of the characteristics. He is so sharp in every other way - there is no way someone medical would intervene. It is impossible not being near him - I even asked him if he wanted to come and live with us but he genuinely wants to live his own life which I know we have to respect. We arranged someone from the police to speak to him too but it went in one ear and out the other!

You have my sympathy. By the time my mum was legally allowed to take over my nanas finances she had given so much of her pension money away. Charities were constantly pestering for more money. She had sponsored 12 bloody guide dogs!

If he is very religious do you know a Rabbi, Priest or suitable religious figure who he would absolutely trust who would come and speak to him to advise him ?

I'm sure no one would want him to starve.

Could you notify his bank that he is being repeatedly targeted by scammers ? They may be able to stop some of the payments?
Ultimately if he won't give you POA and he won't engage with pension he's going to struggle. Could one of the other siblings intervene to explain what you're trying to do?

Leave him to it. Nothing you can do if he has full capacity.

Keep in touch and as a pp said, contact his pals/priest in his religion for advice as to how to keep him fed at least.

You say he is religious - is he part of an organised church or other group which would be able to intervene on your behalf? My mum won't take advice from me or my sister, but will listen when the GP tells her something, or the minister gives advice.

I also think - although I am not a lawyer - the fact he is overseas complicates matters hugely with the POA. You could agree the right to manage his money in the UK, but if you are sending money to him in another country, he is withdrawing cash or then using a local bank account or something like Revolut to send money to Nadia Scamtasticova, i'm not sure you can stop that.

The fact it is romance scams makes this more difficult. People do not want to admit they have been scammed in this way making it hugely difficult to support.

You don't state the country that he's in but is there an equivalent of Trading Standards? They will sometimes visit and give advice. Or the police if you know it's a scam?

It's unlikely to listen to you sadly as you are family. Very occasionally someone 'professional' gets listen to. I also think someone in his faith might be a good idea but again he might be embarrassed to discuss it.

You might want to start looking at the local laws around capacity in case your dad does loose his in the future.

You sound like a very caring daughter. Maybe look at your local trading standards website for further ideas on how to help.

The romance scams are an indication he is lonely

My dad at 85 started to talk about dating again, it was a sign of him feeling lonely more than anything else

We eventually managed to persuade him to move to a retirement facility where he has made new friends, is rarely alone and is so chatty and happy now (it's not a U.K. style nursing home )

He also gets meals brought to him every day.

It costs him his entire pension, but it means the money is well spent and gives him what he actually need a

Can your dad move to a facility somewhere for communal living? Old age can be very lonely day to day

Can you help him understand that you're not going to stop him giving away all his money but you'd like to make sure he keeps 25% (or whatever you and he agree will cover rent, utilities, and food) of what he gets each month to cover his bills?

You can reassure him that every penny of the rest is his to use whatever way he sees fit.

Is there no social.services department at all that could be contacted in the country he's living in?

I am not sure how poa works if the donor lives overseas.
However poa does not mean you are allowed to stop a person spending their money on what they want to.

Even with POA, I think it only kicks in when the person lacks capacity. Even though I would be equally furious I am not sure if it would help.

I am trying to think about whether or not I would continue to support his habit and really cannot decide.

He is making his choice.

If he wants to be an old fool, let him.

The assumption is that he has capacity but his behaviour seems to indicate that he doesn't.

I don't think POA applies to people living overseas. UK law had no jurisdiction there.

I completely understand why you're frustrated but I'd struggle to literally let him starve. Not sure how expensive basics are wherever he lives, but between you and your siblings couldn't you at least mass buy some giant bags of rice/potatoes/long life milk/oats/few tins of soup next time you go over there? or have them delivered?

I wouldn't give him cash but spending fifty quid or whatever every six months on food for the sake of easing your own guilt would be worth it for me.

why doesn't he receive his pension letters? that seems like a separate issue. He shouldn't have to keep confirming he's alive to get what he's entitled too!

Lacking capacity is nothing to do with making bad decisions. It is whether he can understand the decisions and their consequences that counts.
In any case, if he is in the early stages of dementia, and has lost capacity, is too late to give you POA.

I don't think POA applies to people living overseas. UK law had no jurisdiction there.

True that.

But different countries have their own POA.

Up to OP which one applies.

Sorry you're going through this OP. It's so hard. Had the same with my parents in a different country, solo mum too.