Worried about driving

[DairyleaSandwich]

DFIL, 88, has been in and out of hospital this past year (twice since August), passing out (several times this year), he gets very confused. He's had numerous falls this year alone (enough to draw blood and cause gashes to head and limbs).

But! "He loves to drive!" everyone says. My god, it's terrifying being in a car with him, he pulls out in junctions without looking, drives right past where he should be going. When we're out at a cafe, he'll wander off and get lost, he'll fall asleep.

Everyone in the family thinks it's super great how he loves driving, but I don't. I'm a lone voice (have only expressed my worries to DP) and it's getting really uncomfortable. I think there's no way he should be driving. At all. But he keeps on driving and everyone thinks it's just fine and dandy.

He was driving around the day after he got home from his most recent hospital stay.

FIL & MIL live around an hour's drive away and they've said they're popping over at the weekend.

I appreciate it's not my place to say anything as they're not my parents. But, has anyone been in a similar situation and do you have any advice? DP says he "doesn't want to cause offence" by saying anything to his DPs.

Thank you in advance for any advice.

No way should consultants have to decide if someone is capable of driving when a simple driving test would give the answer without any doubt.

Maybe it should be more that they'd decide that someone shouldn't drive until they'd done the test?

No way should consultants have to decide if someone is capable of driving when a simple driving test would give the answer without any doubt. We're unable to provide driving tests in a timely fashion to all the would-be new drivers. We haven't a hope in hell of providing tests every two years to all the 70 plus people.

If you're going to do a test, do it on what the problems are - declining cognitive function, and reaction times, and require an up to date eyesight test.

Better still, as a country, expedite self-driving vehicles and solve the problem in one go (since a a country we're not willing to provide a public transport system adequate for people's needs).

@DairyleaSandwich Ive known people who have been told to stop driving by consultants. They know what happens to a patient with whatever ailment will make them unsafe drivers. They know better than a patient who won’t face up to it. To not say anything seems to be wrong and not caring about society.

@ErrolTheDragon Yes. Thats reasonable. Clinical knowledge is surely key here.

Would you trust him driving your children around? If the answer is no then its time to have the talk. We eventually removed the car from FIL. We felt it was our responsibility to ensure everyone's safety not just FIL and MIL. You could also report to DVLA.

So..l raised the subject.
It didn't go down well.
Apparently, everything is perfectly fine and ok.

Big deep breaths were taken. I said about insurance and undeclared medical conditions. DP says, DFIL all approved to drive because he gained this approval after his 6 month non-driving after hs had a TIA stroke last year.

This is news to me. I didn't know about this. I knew he had a fall then, but PILs said it was all fine and I can categorically say, he never stopped driving for 6 months. My god!

DP says, DFIL is ok to drive because he was approved a few weeks ago as well, before he started fainting and, the fainting is related to a different medical condition.

DP also says GPs and hospital staff have a legal requirement to report any fainting/concerns to the DVLA and he spent time searching out links and showing me I was wrong to suggest it.

God almighty, I'm lost in a sea of words and confusion.

@I8toys oh yes, DP is fine for DFIL to drive DGS around.
Small point of order that they live some considerable miles away and it wouldn't ever happen

Can I contact a Consultant at the hospital? @TizerorFizz

Seems no one in the the DPIL family is concerned. I get it, I really do. It's hard for DMIL to admit, it's hard for DP also.

Write to the DVLA, and if you know the name to his insurance company. Clearly state that this is confidential and that your name must not be disclosed to anyone under any circumstances.

I had the converstion with my dad about a year ago and offered to sell his car for him on autotrader, it worked.
Positives: using car money (including MOT, tax, insurance, maintenance) for taxis and public transport. Peace of mind for his family.
Negatives: not able to pop out easily on a whim.
He sees others his age and older driving and sometimes wonders if he should have given the car up so easily. However, I pointed out if he had a stroke and killed himself and others I would be left dealing with the fallout including people asking why I didn't stop him from driving.
Better to stop driving with a clean sheet of 50 years or whatever.

Age UK advice is to write to the DVLA.

https://www.ageuk.org.uk/information-advice/travel-hobbies/driving/worried-about-someones-driving/

If he had to surrender his licence for 6 months (as in had to declare a medical condition, return the licence and then reapply) and he carried on driving then that’s pretty bad.

DP also says GPs and hospital staff have a legal requirement to report any fainting/concerns to the DVLA and he spent time searching out links and showing me I was wrong to suggest it.

I used to be a GP. Your DP is WRONG.

You can, if you want, show your GP the GMC guidance which is here:
https://www.gmc-uk.org/professional-standards/professional-standards-for-doctors/confidentiality---patients-fitness-to-drive-and-reporting-concerns-to-the-dvla-or-dva/patients-fitness-to-drive-and-reporting-concerns-to-the-dvla-or-dva
but I suspect he doesn't want to hear and won't read this.

The GMC also clarify this, on the same page:
The driver is legally responsible for telling the DVLA or DVA about any such condition or treatment. Doctors should therefore alert patients to conditions and treatments that might affect their ability to drive and remind them of their duty to tell the appropriate agency. Doctors may, however, need to make a decision about whether to disclose relevant information without consent to the DVLA or DVA in the public interest if a patient is unfit to drive but continues to do so.

Doctors' first legal obligations are to their patients, and after that, to wider society. They CAN inform the DVLA if they are aware that someone should not be driving for medical reasons, but the onus is on the patient to inform the DVLA first. The doctor should advise the patient to do so; if they then become aware that the patient hasn't followed this advice, they can contact the DVLA themselves but have to tell the patient that they are going to do so. Most people would suggest that the doctor in this situation discuss it with their defence body before taking action. Of course, the dr has no way of knowing really if their advice has been taken up; if they ask the patient and the patient lies to them, they're not going to know otherwise.

So no, there is no "legal requirement " on a doctor to report to the DVLA, (Whether there should be or not is a different argument of course!) The legal requirement is actually on the patient.

As you clearly recognise, even if you get your licence back after a period of illhealth, there's nothing to stop some other medicalcondition intervening and rendering you unfit to drive again anyway.

You can contact your FILs consultant and GP to pass on info to them but they cannot give you any confidential information regarding your FIL.

@DairyleaSandwich I guess you can try. Whether they would talk to you is another matter. Patient confidentiality but I would be asking if this ailment means not driving. From the post above your fil should have been advised about driving. Your DH seems determined to say his DF is safe. That feels odd to me. He’s deferring to his parent. Does he always do this?

This was linked on another MN thread. Maybe worth showing them - would he really want to risk this kind of scenario?

news.sky.com/story/woman-96-admits-causing-death-of-pedestrian-after-she-panicked-and-mounted-the-kerb-13204265

I agree.

My father was driving until he died (85) and someone had reported him to the DVLA as they’d seen him hit a car in a car park and not even notice! His GP declared him fit for driving. My mother is talking about ‘getting back to driving’ since dad died. Thankfully she’s agreed to a few lessons 1st before she makes the decision. I think she’ll realise it’s too much for her now.

Thank you everyone for your replies

DP currently standing firm that everything is just fine, but, for some reason, he's told PILs not to drive over to visit. He knows his DF shouldn't be driving.

PILs keep angling to pop over on the one-hour here, one hour back trip, plus the 20-minute drive each way in their car to go to their favourite cafe near us.

I had this issue with my DM - the GP declared her fit for driving in front of me when she could barely stand or speak, but her memory was fine, so that was OK! Never mind that she kept driving into cars in car parks (which she didn't seem to remember) and her insurance was costing a fortune.

The thing that stopped her was being sent by the stroke association for an assessment. Maybe you could contact them for a referral? The hospital doctor told my DM she could drive one month after her stroke - so she jumped back in her car and drive herself around for six months before going to the assessment. She argued that she'd always driven like she did on the assessment, and her DH used to shout at her for her poor driving, so it was nothing new. My DS took her to the assesment, and then drove her straight to a mobility scooter shop on the way home and told her to choose one .

You have my sympathy OP, you need a united front to deal with this.

Even with a united front, unless they will listen to reason you will be on a hiding to nothing. Both my sister and I plus our DHs tried an intervention - DM said she’d think about it, then a week later told me she was perfectly fine to drive and so was going to continue. Fortunately for us and other road users, a medical diagnosis has finally made the decision for her.

You have said OP you would feel awful if anything happened, so surely reporting him to DVLA is the m ost sensible thing to do. If it bothers you what others think of you doing it,then don’t tell anyone, it is all anonymous.