Worried about driving

[DairyleaSandwich]

DFIL, 88, has been in and out of hospital this past year (twice since August), passing out (several times this year), he gets very confused. He's had numerous falls this year alone (enough to draw blood and cause gashes to head and limbs).

But! "He loves to drive!" everyone says. My god, it's terrifying being in a car with him, he pulls out in junctions without looking, drives right past where he should be going. When we're out at a cafe, he'll wander off and get lost, he'll fall asleep.

Everyone in the family thinks it's super great how he loves driving, but I don't. I'm a lone voice (have only expressed my worries to DP) and it's getting really uncomfortable. I think there's no way he should be driving. At all. But he keeps on driving and everyone thinks it's just fine and dandy.

He was driving around the day after he got home from his most recent hospital stay.

FIL & MIL live around an hour's drive away and they've said they're popping over at the weekend.

I appreciate it's not my place to say anything as they're not my parents. But, has anyone been in a similar situation and do you have any advice? DP says he "doesn't want to cause offence" by saying anything to his DPs.

Thank you in advance for any advice.

He shouldn’t be driving
he's lucky to have not caused an accident which could harm him and / or someone else
i get he loves it but that’s irrelevant - he’s not cognitively able
Check DVLA for advice but sounds like he should stop now

Thank you, @rubyslippers this are my fears too. And it's the "oh, but he loves driving" that instantly shuts down any conversation. He's a danger to himself and others.

MIL says DVLA have approved him for driving and it's all perfectly fine. I'm not sure how to check this.

You can contact DVLA confidentially
lots of good advice here; https://www.ageuk.org.uk/information-advice/travel-hobbies/driving/worried-about-someones-driving/

it’s actually reckless of everyone to ignore this

good for you for taking a stand

does MIL drive? Is she pushing him to keep driving as she doesn’t?

He shouldn't be driving especially if he's episodes of passing out. DH had a couple of episodes of blacking out last year and the GP told him to report himself to the DVLA and he's not allowed to drive until 12 months have passed since his last episode. I guess you could report him anonymously but would then have to think about you would deal with it if they found out it was you? Would your DH contact FIL GP for advice? I'm not sure if GPs themselves can report patients?

Yes @rubyslippers MIL drives, but FIL doesn't like it.
Thank you so much for the links, I'll have a good look through.

DP won't report anything @Tupperwarelid I think a strong element is he and rest of family are in denial about FILs ailing health. There's a constant chorus of "tough as old boots/will outlive us all" etc etc

I might try broaching the subject of whether there's any follow-up appointments for FIL and drop into conversation with DP about DVLA

You can report him anonymously to the DVLA.

First of all, decide your own boundaries - for me I decided I was never going to get in a car with MIL again, or let her drive ds.

Then really it would be appropriate to insist on going to see them, rather than just accept they're going to drive, and tell them why.

But I get this is intensely difficult.

In dobbed in FIL to the DVLA anonymously. He never found out it was me.

https://www.gov.uk/driving-medical-conditions - syncope (fainting) is certainly notifiable, and I would take the tack with the dvla that he has had several episodes of this, and you are generally concerned about his driving including driving through junctions, confusion and so forth.

It’s a tough one, but how would you feel if he caused an accident and you’d done nothing?

FIL got called to do a test, and they were very very diplomatic about telling him he could no longer drive.

Have mentioned it to DP and said that I won't be getting in a car with DFIL as per @PermanentTemporary DP said he didn't want DPILs coming over, so we're going to be busy out somewhere and let them know. DP still of the mind he doesn't want to offend his DF by saying "don't drive".

@olderbutwiser I feel an impending sense of dread that something bad is going to happen every time DFIL gets behind the wheel. I want DP to intervene, but he's not going to.

I strongly suspect I'd be prime suspect for any anonymous reporting (also @Infracat ) How I wish the GP/doctor/follow-up medical (if there is one) would do this as a matter of course after any repeated fainting episodes.

I'm going to talk further with DP and say I've looked it up and there's plenty of examples on line and that DFIL can do a test.

Might even say I've spoken to the wellbeing team at my work (non-medical employer, but a large firm who offer wellbeing and care advice) and they've suggested the DVLA route.

I'd feel absolutely awful if an accident happened and I'd done nothing. When I heard he was driving the next day out of hospital, I said DP has to say something, but nothing was said. And even if he had, the ILs wouldn't listen.

Thank you all for your help, it's much appreciated

When my df was at a similar stage, I lied my head off and told him his GP had contacted me and said that he really shouldn't drive from now on and I must make sure he doesn't. I'm not sure he really believed me but he handed over his keys because I told him the GP said it was my responsibility now. I'd been told, and I couldn't live with myself, etc. I felt really awful about the lies but also knew that I'd feel even worse if he caused an accident.

It's a very difficult scenario and one that happens pretty frequently when older people don't want to give up driving.

To put it bluntly, if someone is having unpredictable daytime blackouts then they cannot drive. You need to make this very clear to them; whether they choose to hear you or not is sadly out of your control but I would also refuse to get into the car with them (expect to cause offence and upset, but that's better than being a dead passenger!) Cognitive impairment is a more nuanced situation so I'd be inclined to ignore that when speaking to them and to your husband, and address the hard facts of the blackouts.

Point out that the DVLA website says:
You can be fined up to £1,000 if you do not tell DVLA about a medical condition that affects your driving. You may be prosecuted if you’re involved in an accident as a result.

Point out, too, that failure to disclose any possibly relevant medical condition will mean that the insurance is invalid; and driving without valid insurance is also an offence. Remind them that even if they think that they won't have an accident, they can't be sure that someone won't go into their car, and so any issues with insurance could come out even if they feel that an accident was not their fault.

I used to know an elderly couple who were both compus mentis; he drove but she didn't; then he started having nocturnal seizures. I told him he couldn't legally drive, at least while things were being investigated and of course this went down like a lead balloon. So I pointed out the worst case scenario -- not that he killed himself behind the wheel, but that he also killed someone else, and left his widow dealing with the legal implications of the other party's family suing the estate for damages, as insurance wouldn't pay out. That did the trick eventually.

Good luck, it's no fun being in your position and you'll need nerves of steel and the hide of a rhino to follow this through but I honestly think you have to keep trying.

When I was nearly 70, I realised that in order to keep driving a minibus I had to take a medical.It is the same medical as bus drivers and HGV drivers need to take at any age. I’ve now done that medical three times and I have decided that if I fail it I will stop driving as if I am not safe to drive a large vehicle I am not safe to drive.
I’d recommend that anyone worried about an elderly relative’s fitness to drive should suggest they do this sort of medical. A quick google search for “HGV medical” will find places that offer these. It is a D4 medical form that the doctor will complete.
If a relative fails this medical it should be easy to persuade them to stop driving.

Thank you, such informative replies.
I'm going to raise it with DP properly tomorrow.

The insurance angle is a great one and one I think might strike a note, thank you @SadMary (mainly because there's a financial implication and this will resonate with them)

@thisoldcity I'm going to subtly suggest your route as PIL wouldn't question anything DP says to them.

You could suggest an assessment?
www.olderdrivers.org.uk/driver-assessment/find-a-driver-assessment/

Is it likely with his hospital admissions that someone at the hospital will have told him not to drive or assumed he isn't?

Ultimately you need to work out if the discomfort at standing up to everyone else is worse than the consequences when he does hit someone or something. That could be a family member injured in the car with him or an entirely innocent passer-by. He may not even realise that he's driving illegally and therefore his insurance is invalid if he's driving whilst medically unfit.

Take him for an eye test. We have in firm the DVLA if there are legal impedents to drive.

MIL says DVLA have approved him for driving and it's all perfectly fine. I'm not sure how to check this.

She quite possibly means that he has had no problems renewing his licence. Which just means that he has ticked a box to say he is fit to drive.

You can try getting him to do a driving assessment with a driving instructor.

You can try the angle that you’re worried that if there’s an accident, maybe caused by somebody else, that could leave him or MIL incapacitated and unable to live independently any more.

You can try pointing out that the costs of running the car are so high now that he could use the money for taxis instead.

And if all that fails (it most likely will) you report to the DVLA. And you can also report your concerns to the local police.

I’ve been through all this with DM and it’s been a massive fight. Fortunately a medical diagnosis meant that she absolutely cannot drive any more and she’s finally accepted that. Be aware that often GPs are reluctant to get involved because they worry that it damages the trust between doctor and patient.

The Government really needs to do something about this.

Anyone over 70 should have to have to have to retake their driving test every 2 years or so.

Bet they won't do anything just like the last lot.

No, they need to make the medical declaration more meaningful. Most 70 year olds are fine driving as evidenced by insurance premiums.

Yes, most 70 year olds are fine to drive, but if some are not and it is a fact that cognitive function declines with age. It peaks at age 30 so by 70 everyone will have had a decline.

I am sure you would change you would change your tune if your child was killed by a 70 year old who should not have been driving.

A medical declaration means nothing regardless of how "meaningful" it is, whathever that means. Doctors should not have to decide is someone is capable of driving when a simple driving test would give the answer without any doubt.

I think people lying on the medical form to the dvla should be an offence. Hospital consultants should be accountable. People in general should be told driving is no longer possible and take responsibility away from someone who won’t stop driving. It’s not acceptable to ignore the fact someone should not be driving. It is unsafe but too many pass the buck.

I am 77 and I agree with you. We need to do everything possible to keep the roads safe.

Don't worry about offending anyone, do what you need to do. I read of a case of an elderly person mounting the pavement and killing a 16 year old. The person was already being investigated by police but refused to stop driving. They died months later.

No way should consultants have to decide if someone is capable of driving when a simple driving test would give the answer without any doubt.

You've all nailed it: he shouldn't be driving, and at the very least, he can take an assessment to prove he's as fine as PILs blithely say.

I'm going to talk it over with DP this weekend, going in particularly on the insurance angle, because this involves money, I think it might resonate.

I would have thought the hospital would flag that because of his recent admissions, he shouldn't drive. Maybe they did for all I know and PILs just glossed over it.

Have made notes from all the helpful links you've sent and I'll do my best to convey the seriousness. It'll cause a bit of a row as it's a sacrosanct rule that the ILs "are proud" i.e. don't question anything they do. But at the heart of it lies a very real danger, I'm frustrated DP can't or won't see it.

Thank you all for your help

My father had to stop driving recently as he had a seizure. He is 92 and actually was a good driver but getting less confident so the seizure made the decision easy.

When he was discharged after the seizure he was given a form to fill in for the DVLA
The hospital doctor he saw in the outpatient clinic later also told him not to drive and even when I said dad had sold his car he was still very serious and said he wasn't to get another one.

As an ex GP I have been presented with the "should he/she be driving?" Question a lot.

Sometimes it's obvious
Sometimes you just don't know as you're not in the car with them.