Helping parents who won't help themselves

[Sandqueen]

What Is the best course of action to try and help my parents who are going downhill fast but are not open to receiving advice or support from myself and brother.
My mum has always suffered mental health was sectioned lots when younger and has always had my dad as her 'carer'. They have more of a co dependant can't live with each other but cannot live without each other. There is trauma within our family, especially around my brother who they have never been great parents too. He lives miles away and does try to help with administrative support but it is always problematic for them for some reason and they do not like to accept help but clearly cannot do many daily tasks/bills etc. My mum has a psychiatrist who comes and sees her otherwise she does not leave her bedroom. They both have copd and my dad's health has taken a turn after a fall where he ended up in hospital. During this time chaos ensued as mum had a breakdown and it highlight how we have to plan for what will happen in the future.
We tried to get them to live closer to us so we could look after them better I think they think we are being selfish and it's all about us. This is not further from the truth.. I understand now their reasons for not wanting to move as they have always lived in that house.
Whenever we try to talk to them about the future they say we are fine. (Apart from when my dad says I do not know that your mother would do if I wasn't here) No plans have been put in place for how they would like to live at home safely. They have no money to pay for carers etc and they just seem to be stuck in this horriblly sad space. My mums smokes loads and rarely speaks to anyone and dad had just started smoking again after stopping for 20 years and is so frail I worry what will happen over the winter months. My mum has always said never put her in a care home. I think she thought I would take over the role of carer from my dad but they live an hour away, I work full time and my husband had a breakdown last year and I need to prioritise his wellbeing and my children's too,
There has been no more discussion on future and I know my parents will be burying their heads in the sand as it's all too difficult to address/organise. I do knot know what I can do to plan for the inevitable? I know if we don't plan now everything will be crazy soon.
I wake up every morning anxious that we are going to get a phone call that my dad is unwell and my mum has flipped.
there must be something more pro active I and my brother can be doing but I du not know what?
Any advice would be really appreciated

@Sandqueen I’m posting in the hope more useful help will be along.

DF was utterly stubbornly independent and I’ve had a very steep learning curve.

Are your parents known to Social Services already?

If they have limited funds and no local support then what you can do from a distance is keep on at Social Services to see and assess your parents care needs.

@FiniteSagacity FiniteSagacity Thank you for your reply.
sorry that you have had a steep learning curve with your DF. It seems no matter of everyone's personal experiences it often filled with sadness, guilt, resentment. Parents feeling unloved. My mum is known to the mental health team. I don't want to contact social services as I don't want to undermine them, they would see it as going behind their backs.

@Sandqueen feel for you. Main advice is to look after yourself. Several threads on here of a similar topic-reality is you do have to wait for the crisis to happen before people like your parents will take any action. The phrase ‘put your own oxygen mask on first’ is incredibly important.

Does anyone have Power of Attorney for either of them? If not would you or your bother want to take on this level
of responsibility in the future?

are their wills up to date?

Are they known to social services? Do they need a reassessment if things have changed?

As BlueLegume says, if they have capacity and don't want to engage with help you can't make them.

It's worth familiarising yourself with the services available in your and their areas - day centres, care homes, making sure you have social services numbers etc so when it does all fall apart you know who to contact and have an idea of options. But beyond that, you just have to wait.

@BlueLegume thank you, I do think you are right when you say you have to let the crisis happen unfortunately.

Get POA for health and finance in place and sit back and wait for the crisis. Most of us on this thread have been there! Look at potential ideas for moving them near you - so you can present all options. We did a PowerPoint! 😂

But only get POA sorted if you feel that you are a position to be willing and able to take on everything that it entails.

If nobody has it then there are frameworks in place for social services, medical teams etc to take on the necessary roles and responsibilities,

It sounds like the only thing that will provoke change is a crisis of some sort. Sometimes you just have to stand back and let it happen - but as a pp says you can prepare for some of it. Knowing about services etc is useful. Also, think about what you are willing to do and what you are not. Never too early to start reinforcing your own boundaries - even just to yourself.

Contact Age Concern they can offer advice.

Adult Social Care (Ss) can do an assessment not only of their needs but of yours if you are supporting them.

Lasting power of attorney are also important to get done.

@Sandqueen if it helps I am currently considering removing myself from having POA.

Like @BlueLegume I often find myself regretting getting LPoAs. Think hard about your boundaries as you have your DH, DCs who must be your priority, plus the distance.

My bank holiday weekend involved hard work and more expenses I’ll have to wait to claim back after the house is sold. I saw very little of my DH and DCs.

If your parents have no money LPoAs will just make you an unpaid personal assistant (in my case to thankless dictator).

So decide what you are prepared to do - and make sure social services are aware of your parents. There is a welfare system that has legal obligations.

@FiniteSagacity it’s a tricky one isn’t it. I am conscious if I do it I may come across as throwing my toys out of the pram so I am only pondering it for now. Logically I am reflecting on the past couple of years and noting that even with full capacity we have not really helped our mother. Bluntly we have simply enabled her appalling rude stubborn behaviour. Her utter refusal to make sensible adaptations to the house resulted in DF having to go into nursing care. She refused to have a bed downstairs she refused to have carers she refused to have space adapted for a toilet - so now she is ‘sad’ he is settled and safe in the home. There is literally not one single thing anyone has done she has agreed to be good, sensible etc. We have pointed her in the direction of so many amazing resources and people but she has dug her heels in and refused to engage. The harsh reality is she lived a fantastic fun life doing what she wanted but utterly buried her head in the sand about how they would manage in later life. She mocked people who made provision by moving to accommodation more suited to being less mobile. She has all but admitted she ‘just thought BlueLegume and my siblings would and I quote ‘rally round’. We have relentlessly but nothing is right. She watched me scrubbing her shower on my hands an knees a few weeks ago and had the audacity to tell me ‘well it’s better than it was but not to my standard’. She won’t allow a cleaner in. As the FOG website explains she is what is described as ‘selectively competent’ and also ‘terminally unique’. LPA wise I am still not convinced it was worth all the effort. Sorry slightly sabotaged the thread with a vent and a whinge!!

As I found out to my cost (not literal cost, but more the practical cost) NOT getting an LPA in place can be a nightmare if then one / both lose capacity.

You have to apply for deputyship to then be able to access bank acounts and make decisions. This is a real pain, and you also have to complete a comprehensive annual report on all income and expenditure as well. Understandable as clearly you need to show you're protecting their interests, but still a real pain.

@ScoobyDoesnt sound advice and deep down I know it is the right thing to have the LPAs as we do have. I guess if one thing we had done had been met with her agreement it might feel less draining. The NH DF is in is spot on for him, it is not all singing all dancing but it works for him and the staff are awesome, so caring. Mother detests it but the reality is the super fancy ones would not be able to cater for his needs. She also ignored all advice from clinicians that he needed to be in a home so that organising came to us 3 siblings - she is still smarting that she had to accept we had to find something asap. Luckily it has worked out. I guess at least with them in place we are saving ourselves hassle in the future.

There is always the option of getting LPA arranged for finances and not for health and welfare. They are distinctly different.

@Muchtoomuchtodo thank you. We sorted the LPAs out a few years ago at the insistence of our mother who made a huge song and dance about doing them all at her convenience- it was incredibly inconvenient for both my sister and I at the time but she literally chose the week that she knew we had other commitments and guilt tripped us into sorting them out. All the ‘you will be the death of me if you don’t do it now’ and TW a very low blow of threatening to end her life ‘because you don’t care about me and my wishes’. Can you explain in lay mans terms the difference for me. I used to think they would be a god send but and now doubting this. As I understood if decisions need to be made say for health we would all chip in with our opinions. Is this the case and does someone have to have lost capacity before the health one can be invoked? As an example my sister and I are joint on both our parents LPAs. At the minute our mother is deemed to have full capacity but is behaving appallingly meaning we are having to do cleaning, shopping, washing etc so in my mind she needs either to be in a home or assisted living or have carers to help. She is refusing to any suggestions at all so everything is falling to us and frankly we are falling apart.

This page is really useful in understanding the difference

https://www.ageuk.org.uk/information-advice/money-legal/legal-issues/power-of-attorney/

It’s helpful to have the finance one sorted otherwise as @ScoobyDoesnt mentiined you end up applying and paying (set up and ongoing fees) for deputyship so that you can liaise with banks, pensions, utility companies etc to pay things on your relatives behalf. Not having the health and welfare one is imo far less important - your loved ones medical team, social worker etc can make these decisions on their behalf.

It’s also important (but really hard) to remember that while people do have the mental capacity to make certain decisions (having or not having capacity is decision specific) they are perfectly entitled to make what we feel are unwise decisions. This could well be what’s happening with your mothers cleaning, shopping, laundry etc and it’s you and your sisters sense of obligation / duty to get it up to the standards that you feel are appropriate that it causing your distress currently. Having LPA does not mean that you have to do this while she has the capacity to make decisions about these things. Once she loses that capacity (if she does) you are then obliged to make decisions that are in her best interests but you must bear in mind what you know about her thoughts on whatever decision it is that you are needing to make.

Why do elderly parents who often havent been good parents now guilt trip and bully you into doing things for them. In many cases they pay no regard to your needs. Its all about them.

Thanks @Muchtoomuchtodo we will have a read. In terms of what she wants she has made it clear she will not go in a home and will not have carers. We are stuck really and it’s breaking us. Boundaries are a great idea in theory but we are in an impossible position. Our brother is ok but he won’t clean or do her washing so it’s just us really.

Because they are who they are. Parents who put themselves first while their kids are growing up will put themselves first in their old age too.

I second this about contacting Age Concern. They're called Age UK now and you need to phone the one for your area. They're helpful and they'll make a profile with notes about the call so whenever you can you won't have to repeat yourself
They can make profiles for your parents too. Get some advice ahead of the curve, it will be helpful for when their circumstances change.

@BlueLegume and that’s fine if she really does have full mental capacity to make those decisions. It does mean that you are obliged to do anything at all for her. You are free to choose how much or little you want to. If she looses that capacity then is the time that you can use your LPA to make decisions in her best interests. I know it’s simple to write down and far less simple to reconcile yourself with in real life when it’s your family member.

@Muchtoomuchtodo and @BlueLegume (and OP) crisis upon crisis happened with DF who still insisted he never wanted to go into a home. I’ve stressed a lot and read everything I can find about assessing capacity and ‘unwise’ decisions because of the LPoAs. I am certain we’ve acted in DF’s best interests by finding an amazing nursing home that meets his physical and mental health needs. All his LPoAs agree DF is in the right place (as do his neighbours, community nursing etc) with the 24 hour supervision hospital doctors recommended.

There are just days I almost wish I’d put DF at the mercy of social services and the NHS system because there is no reward in the admin nightmare we’re in. At all. Not even gratitude. We’ll never completely recover.

@Sandqueen I know the stress of waiting for the crisis call but if your parents have no money (or it is all tied up in a run down property) then do not rush into doing what the welfare state could do to support your parents. If anything, communicate with your brother and make sure you’re on the same page and then tell social services how little family can do. The wise people of mumsnet have pointed out to me parents should be getting outside support - so they aren’t reliant on you and your brother - what if you couldn’t help due to your own health or commitments (or god forbid you are on holiday).

@FiniteSagacity good post. I am no youngster so I recall the ‘help’ given to my incredibly resilient grandparents by my parents - minimal. If anything from being tiny I recall my grandparents having all of us for Sunday lunch, Christmas etc. My mother turned up dissed everyone and everything and behaved like Hyacinth Bucket (Bouquet for those who can recall). My grandparents also fought in the war and volunteered. Our mother talks as if she fought in the war. She didn’t she was 2 when it ended. She lived in a nice place. Benefitted from post war house building, benefitted from a grammar school education, oh I am boring myself now. I’m literally out of steam having sent loads of things DF needs to his nursing home because mother ‘can’t face it’. Sorry for today’s vents she is and always has been utterly impossible. To add to it DF is starting to ramble about how he has had a bad time with her over 60 years of marriage. It is sad to hear.