How to move forward - advice really appreciated

[BlueLegume]

Good morning, I have had lots of sound advice on this forum on several other threads. Quick backstory. I am one of 3 siblings. Elderly father diagnosed with Parkinson’s 4 years ago. Lots of support available locally and from professionals but parents refused to engage. Refused to adapt their home until desperate refused to move to more suitable home, they simply buried their heads using silly cliches - I appreciate that might have been fear. Tottered on a few years until the falls resulted in DF being hospitalised and then a DoLs being put in place meaning he had to be found a nursing facility. The real issue has been our mother. She has always been incredibly headstrong, always know better done better etc etc than everyone else. Daft but very true example was me buying a sofa from a well known sofa company 12 years ago and her telling me I wouldn’t be able to sit on it as it will ‘ fall apart’. She is and always has been a snob. Everything she has is ‘bespoke’. Anyhow DF going into hospital last year saw her totally unable to cope. It has got worse and worse and now she has us 3 siblings all pitched against each other. Especially our brother. My sister and I cannot do anything right. If we take charge and try and do something such as a food delivery he accuses us of not giving mum options….there is little point as she will not make any decisions. On the other hand Mum tells us he simply turns up when it suits and tops off ready meals, which she says she doesn’t like. So we back off abit and he lectures us about not caring. We literally cannot do anything without him being verbally aggressive. In my world this would see me sit down calmly with him, sister and Mum and try to work out how we navigate this part of our life. I needed some important information for the nursing home last week and he literally kicked off at me telling me ‘you are unbelievable BlueLegume just make a decision’. Quite rich coming from someone who failed to even engage with any clinical staff when it was clear Dad needed nursing care. I found the home, did all the paperwork along with my sister. When we tried to include brother with the decision he was simply responding with ‘it’ll be fine’ attitude. No questions no input into anything. Thanks if you got this far. I just do not know how to move on we are simply flailing about on his terms rather than sensible decisions being made about a routine for Mum etc. We don’t expect her to join clubs or anything as she tends to alienate people with her attitude.

If brother is so sure he can do it better, I'd let him do it himself.

I suppose what I am asking is any ideas as to how to manage the fact our DF is almost end of life, manage our mother who is stubborn and negative but still very much on the ball mentally and manage our relationships. Mum is definitely telling us all stories about each other and she always has - personally I sense she is and always has been addicted to the drama and attention that brings. We are all so isolated now as she has upset so many really kind hearted people with her attitude. It literally is just the 3 of us trying and failing to understand how we navigate things. DB is unhappy if we do things, unhappy if we don’t, unhappy probably the wrong word but hopefully someone will understand. I would like to be able to sit down and be calm adults discussing a sensible way to progress. I appreciate that is how I operate in my world and my sister is similar. DB rather like mum seems to be chaotic and dramatic when calm is needed. I had an op recently and kept it from DB and Mum. I eventually had to let DB know and he managed to react with an ‘oh it’s all about you BlueLegume isn’t it’. Op wasn’t very pleasant and there were some complications. I only told him because it had meant I couldn’t drive for a week or so.

@ContentSolitudinarian wise words. I get bogged down with FOG even though I understand the theory behind it every now and then it rears its head and I feel abit lost.

Totally understand. I'm a few years behind you but I can see how difficult it's going to be with stubborn parents. I think I'd just tell brother, "Since you are so good at it and we obviously don't have a clue, I'll let you take care of it all." And I'd do it. When he complains I'd tell him I'm happy to have a planning meeting with him and sister and work out what we can do together. It's stressful enough without having to deal with someone else making it even more difficult.

@ContentSolitudinarian oh goodness thank you that is pretty much what we have tried to do so many times. Unfortunately we have started to realise he doesn’t even let us speak more than 2 words without shouting over us . He has zero ability to listen to anything we say without disagreeing with us. My DSis really is so upset by it all I have had to tell her to take some time out. There is addiction in my Mum’s family, gambling alcohol etc I genuinely think my Mum is addicted to the drama and thrives on any attention however bad. It is impossible to ‘pop in’ and just spend time with her as she presents job after job which need doing even though she is capable. It is like a way of ‘keeping us there’. Without sounding selfish we do all have our own families and responsibilities. I have just spent the weekend with my lovely daughter who needed to talk to me and I realised she has been coping with some issues of her own for a year because she didn’t want to bother me knowing what I had going on. That is not right. My kids are and always have been my priority but I feel that has now had to shift as our brother tells us our Mum should be our priority yet at the same time if we make her the priority she criticises everything we do. Goodness it’s difficult.

No one here is going to change. Your mother is going to carry on trying to divide and rule, and your brother is never going to be happy whatever you do. That is a given.

So just do what you think is best at the time, which I suspect is what you have been doing so far anyway. But you are in a no win situation and you just have to try not to engage with your brother's nastiness and your mother's manipulation.

You mum and brother are never ever going to change. So the decision for you (and your sister) is what are you going to do?

You have your own family who need you. It is most certainly not selfish to want to spend time with and support your daughter who needs you. Compare and contrast with how your mother treats you.

Have you tried the grey rock technique? It’s about not accepting the invite to a drama. You know that meme from it ain’t half hot mum? “Oh dear, how sad, never mind”. It’s about training yourself to not react to and get sucked into the emotional reactions. Your brother talks over and shouts at you? Say calmly I’m not going to be shouted at and hang up. You mum kicks off because you hung up on your brother? Same. Leave the room. Leave the house. The world won’t end.

Do you read the Stately Homes threads? They’re support for people with difficult family of origin and have lots more ideas on those lines.

Next time he shouts I would be saying “shouting isn’t constructive. We need to pull together at this difficult time. She’s all of our mum and we all want to keep things as steady as we can. Let’s work out who will look after what in terms of food/maintenance of the house and so on. Let’s work as a team here”.

It’s a really difficult phase. My dad died ten years ago, my mum’s health is declining and it’s a juggle with own family / work / and trying to help mum too! Sympathy and solidarity to you xx

@blondieminx @funnelfan @Marinel thanks so much. FYI I am aware of grey rock, just a bit rubbish at practicing it! Absolutely agree about the fact it would help if we could work as a team but I am realistic we clearly are not that family dynamic. My sister is genuinely being made unwell by all this chaos. It seems so ridiculous that we are capable people offering good if not perfect support and ideas and our mother says no to everything. My sister cooked some lovely homemade meals recently and our mum actually threw them in the bin. Her reasons being, too bland, too spicy, too salty. I have suggested my lovely but knackered sister does not provide any more food and see what happens. Obviously our brother has reacted with ‘you are unbelievable’. This forum is such a safe space to vent. Thank you

As you’ve written it, the only sensible course seems for you and your sister to withdraw from only the absolute essential communications with you mum and brother. What does your brother expect you to do if your mum throws away the food your sister prepares for her?

i can share the things that helped me, although my family dynamic seems a lot calmer than yours. Firstly I let go of mums high standards for everything that I was imposing on myself and settled for “good enough”. Is she safe, clean, warm, has nutritious food and drink? If yes to all of those then my conscience is clean. Anything else I do is a choice if I have the energy.

secondly I let go of the idea that I was the answer to all her problems. She has a gardener, she has a cleaner (sort of), if she needs anything between my visits my first reply is to ask if a carer can sort it on their next visit.

Does that help you at all? I’m coming from a different place - if my brother behaved like yours he’d get very short shrift from me. But if you cut down what you and your sister did, is your mother still safe, is she clean, is she fed? She might not be happy but that is not your responsibility, and never has been.

@funnelfan thank you. It very much makes sense. In all honesty we do not know what our brother expects of us. He overreacts if we do make suggestions he overreacts if we back off. He overreacts if we suggest a group/family discussion and shuts us down.

I agree my conscience is for the most part clear as she is safe, warm and has access to food. We have gone as far, my DSis and I anyhow, to say if she wants to live on toast that is fine by us. Unfortunately Mum seems to be unable to accept that is ok and is quite snooty that we are stupid enough to consider that as acceptable. We provided some supplements in the form of drinks but she refuses to use them even when we explain it is simply for nutrients. She is very defiant and always has been so don’t t expect any changes at this stage in life.

We organised a gardener last autumn but she refused him access so it is a hit and miss us doing what we can. She had a cleaner but told her not to come back around Christmas time and since then I have approached the lovely cleaner and asked if she could pick up a few hours but she declined due to Mum having been so rude to her. We suggested a brilliant local meal delivery company ( which has actually won awards and is family run) she said absolutely nothing on the menu looked like anything she would eat. We suggested maybe a carer/help just to potter round with her doing things we can’t - my sister and I even agreed we would cover the cost. She refused saying she ‘didn’t want that’.

It is quite sobering speaking to her as the expectation is clearly we should all be doing things. It feels at times like until she literally breaks us all, as she has with friends and extended family, she doesn’t think we should have lives of our own. I have asked her to speak to her GP again as she tells me she can’t cope but she has told me she will not speak to the GP she wants to ‘keep it in the family’

You are quite right. Her happiness is not our responsibility . I think I would do myself a big favour as she has always been very defiant and difficult in the face of lots of really sensible suggestions over a lifetime. Think it’s time to work on ourselves as we are pouring from an empty cup at the moment

This.

I tell your brother that your no longer listening to him complaining. Tell him without you and your sister help he have to be their to look after her, arrange careers or consider a nursing home.

My feeling is that your brother has always been the golden child. He probably wants her to stay at home so he gets an inheritance. He is just unhappy no matter what you do. He needs to come home and manage your mother for a week on his own to see what she is really like.
Tell him as well that you and your sister have decided to take a much needed break on x date and it's his turn to look after her.
Step back and let him deal with her refusing to eat meal's and doing nothing to make things easier for you and your sister.
Tell him as well that it's time that careers were organised for your mother because the reality is that you and your sister are worn out dealing with her.
Until he sees the reality of what you and your sister are putting up with he will still be complaining about everything.

Unless you delt with elderly parents, done caring for them or had close experience of friends or family doing this you have no idea of the reality of it. At times it's like dealing with a adult sized toddler. A lot of elderly people think that the world should revolve around them and their needs.

The reality now is that the adult sons and daughters are married. They need to keep their jobs for money. They could also have their own kids as well and their kids need them at home to go the football match, the school concert ect. Even teenagers need you to help with studying, exams, college choices ect.

I have had several friends in this or dealing with this situation at the moment and it hard going for the mainly adult daughters dealing with it.

@Ihadenough22 very sensible words. Thank you. You are so right about it being like dealing with toddlers. I spoke to my mother yesterday and her attitude is very much ‘the world needs to revolve around her’. She cannot, will not see that the World is still turning and we cannot all drop everything to be next to her. She lives really close to the shops but refuses to go shopping, so we are having to take food to her, which she criticises constantly.She will not accept online deliveries .I might be cynical here having dealt with her over a lifetime, but her behaviour in the past has always been to guilt trip us, throw ultimatums at us, tell us ‘I’ll never speak to you again if you do that’, totally shun people, when she hasn’t got things her own way. My cynicism extends to me thinking she is so used to doing this one of us will eventually crack and decide to move in. She will not accept carers, she will not accept referrals to therapy or counselling. She will not do anything to try and occupy her time. We have left books, puzzles jigsaws you name it. My reality is that she is just an exaggeration of her normal self and has zero skills to cope yet will not access any help. She simply expects us to do it all. She says that isn’t true but if it wasn’t she would not have us all running ourselves into the ground. She could actually say thank you for the food we are taking but instead she just complains she ‘didn’t rate it’. I mentioned in a previous thread my main home is actually overseas but I have a base in the UK. That base is rapidly becoming where I spend most of my time as she is making it clear she doesn’t think it is appropriate we are not close by. We tried to get them to move to assisted living type accommodation years ago but they refused as it ‘was full of old people’ and a myriad of other excuses. That ripple effect is causing issues within my own family as my husband especially is wonderful but wondering if he still actually has a wife. It’s all horrible and it will only get worse.

@BlueLegume from all your posts in this thread you sound like you have done everything reasonable to try and assist your mum. It’s ok to stop now. Honestly. if she will still be safe and fed if you stop, then stop. Save any energy for dealing with your dad and his care home if that is needed.

All the sayings apply about putting on your own oxygen mask and not setting yourself on fire to keep someone else warm. please book your flight home and see your DH and family, and mute the messaging from your brother and mum. You could even invite your sister to visit you for a break if your relationship is up to it.

You really don't have to give in to the constant emotional manipulation. As others have said, it's okay to stop. Drop the rope. Let your brother take over. She doesn't think it's 'appropriate' for you to live abroad? Who cares, she doesn't get to decide. You are actually in a great position, your main residence is abroad - go home!

@funnelfan @Marinel thank you. I’m actually a very pragmatic sensible person but all of this has taken me back to growing up and my Mum, and Dad to be honest manipulative behaviours. It’s like cliche bingo and always has been. Do something normal teenagers do, parents respond with “it’s killing us, we can’t sleep or think “ That was literally the response to me saying I wanted to quit swimming club because my school work was suffering. Hyperbole central always. Yeah my sister is always welcome to stay. I have some things to sort but I definitely think I need to go home. I’m achieving very little with Mum. Dad is well cared for and sadly as ever playing second fiddle to Mum. This should be about him but it’s not. Goodness knows what I’d do without this lovely forum. Sister very welcome to visit we always have a lovely time. Thank you

I would stop all he said, she said, she wants, she needs etc and not converse with DB about what DM's latest complaint was and not converse with anyone about what DB, DSis or DM has said to you.
If DB insists you do X - do it if possible, don't do it if otherwise and don't discuss it with anyone
If DM is having a tantrum, tell her you are v sorry she is upset, tell her to let you know what she needs (within reason) and discuss it with no one.
I could be wrong but it sounds to me like everyone is discussing and debating and worrying and demanding - just stop all conversation. Offer the odd thing if DM wants it, thank DB for his ideas. Do nothing and tell no one. Things should quieten down. And let things take their course cos you can't fix it.

@Scarletrunner thanks need to adopt that approach

I’ve not read everything but I think if your mum is still alert and capable of making decisions I’d ask her to decide on things. If she uses it maybe set up a whatsapp chat group and say for example Mum do you need me to get shopping this week? and then ‘what do you need’ so you your db and ds read it too So no arguments as you’ve all seen what she wants ?

to an outsider your situation sounds impossible- why would you put up with this? Your mum is a nightmare and is your brother.

why is your brother shouting at you ? This makes no sense. Put the phone down and let him deal
with it.

go home. Stop pandering to your mother. Unless it does something for you, in which case get a therapist to work out what on earth is going on.

you have some very unhealthy family dynamics indeed. Get some help for yourself

I have no advice but you are simply amazing for putting up with all of this for so long and I hope you get things sorted op ! It’s shocking

@funnelfan your advice is spot on.
OP, you are far too soft, I can't identify because I'm not like that, I've become tough on these issues over the years. Please go back to your family, stop letting your mother and brother treat you and your sister like this. And choose not to feel guilty, it gets easier with practice. Having said that, I don't want to tell you off at all, you sound amazing

It does sound like you are all stuck in the parent / child dynamic and your relationship never moved onto the adult / adult plane where you are all equal.

I'm afraid I have no advice as to how or even if you can shift the dynamic. It took me years and I started when my parents were in their sixties as I knew the caring would fall to me. Even now, more than twenty years on, I find that sometimes we have slipped into old patterns.

All I can suggest is that you and your sister prioritise yourselves. I know it seems selfish, but it really isn't. You both need to be well to look after your own families and each other. Leave your brother and mother to each other for a while and use the time away to reinforce your coping mechanisms as per pp's grey rock advice.