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Elderly parents

IV fluids

10 replies

ElizabethVonArnim · 08/07/2024 21:04

Can I ask for some advice? Or not even really advice, but general thoughts on situation with my Mum?

*I've come back to the top to note that I've realised I'm writing a bloody essay - if you have time to read and offer input, I would appreciate it.

Mum has Alzheimer's and also Primary Progressive Aphasia, so can't speak, so she needs us to advocate for her all the time.

She's currently in hospital - she's been in for nearly 10 weeks now and we know that she can't return to her previous place in a care home as she will need nursing care. We've been told that she is close to qualifying for continuing health care and that she'll definitely qualify for funded nursing care top up.

She went into hospital with delirium that resulted from a UTI that resisted all the antibiotics the GP threw at it and turned into sepsis. The sepsis has been treated and there's no lingering infection; the delirium remains.

It is hypoactive delirium so she has become much more passive and sleepy and can't do anything for herself that she was doing a couple of months ago (eg she was eating, walking up and down stairs, going to the toilet - v hit and miss but still - and dancing to music). Now she is largely bed-bound, although on a few occasions she's been able to sit in a chair if helped to transfer by two physios; she can't feed herself and takes a very long time to swallow any food she takes.

She only has soft food and has thickened drinks to help swallowing. She doesn't eat much but on good days will drink from a sippy cup, holding it herself on a better day and drinking when helped on a 'normal' day. Dad and I visit every day and are now used to hospital visiting. We help to feed Mum her meals etc.

On a few occasions since she's been in hospital, she's had days when she has been very sleepy and hard to rouse, and on those days she eats and drinks even less, which generally leads after two days of this to much deeper sleep/unconsciousness. When she's like this, she will perk up as if by magic if given overnight IV fluids - the next day, she will be recovered enough to eat and drink so it seems to break the downward spiral and get her back to her new baseline, which is much worse than before she went into hospital but allows her to smile and sometimes recognise us and to interact with us and with carers.

Today is day two of another dehydration downward slide so I talked to the doc and suggested iv fluids, which he has given. He talked, though, about what advance directives we had discussed. We've got a DNR in place that says no food/fluids if unlikely to lead to meaningful consciousness, but that's not the case here as we have seen repeatedly the return to consciousness and alertness after fluids.

No one has said that Mum is on an end-of-life pathway - and we've been told that if this were the case, we'd be told! However, I've done a bit of googling about reduced appetite and increased sleepiness and it keeps coming back to say it is part of the process of dying.

What I am wondering is whether I'm doing the wrong thing in advocating for fluids. It's not causing any odema at the moment and there doesn't seem to be any real downside except the discomfort of the cannula. I can't imagine not wanting Mum to have the level of recovery that we see when she's hydrated, and I don't want her to die of dehydration when it's so easily preventable/treatable. But am I kidding myself? Is this actually the beginning of the end?

I know that Mum won't get better beyond a certain level and I know that she will eventually die of her condition, which will probably get worse from here. I also know that before Mum's dementia, when she was a nurse, she cared for a couple of friends through end of life care and was adamantly in favour of more life and against assisted dying. She has some quality of life - not much, but she is gentle and responsive and likes music and chocolate and isn't - as far as we can tell - in pain. She has lots of visits from family. My sister in America has just had a baby and is due to come over in September - I would like her to see Mum if possible.

Thank you if you have got this far. I guess what I wanted to discuss is whether this sounds like Mum is actively dying and I should work on recognising and accepting the process and making sure she is comfortable, or if I'm right to keep pushing for her to have basic treatment when it seems to be on a repeating cycle - I know it's an invasive treatment to a degree. No doctor has really resisted the suggestion (this is the fifth time I've asked for IV fluids for Mum over ten weeks) but no doctor has seemed keen to do it either. If they are talking about advance directives at this point, are they trying to get me to see something I don't want to see? I honestly don't know. Mum doesn't seem that ill when she's hydrated, although she can't do much. It might be that what we're now used to as a baseline is clouding my judgement.

OP posts:
Confidenceonfloor · 08/07/2024 22:54

I haven't been quite in the same situation and I really feel for you.All I can say is that when my aunt was dying of cancer the doctors were very clear that she had begun the process of actively dying and that we might wish to be by her side for next few days. My suspicion is therefore that if your was actively dying they would have told you this but you might be better having a frank discussion with them as to where your mum is and planning accordingly.Wishing you strength x

Believeinmarmite · 08/07/2024 23:39

This is so similar to what happens with my mum when she goes in hospital, although it sounds like mums dementia is a bit more advanced I think (nota competition anyone wants to win!) We were told in the last admission that she was end of life and they withdrew all fluids etc, she bounced back and is at baseline now, I have been told by the palliative care team this is very common and will likely happen again. It's so hard. It's a good idea to have a think about what the situations are where you would say no more, but when your in them it's so hard to know what to do.

ElizabethVonArnim · 09/07/2024 06:18

Thank you both. It's reassuring that the hospital team will be clear when it comes to it - as there hasn't been that conversation yet, I guess we're not quite there yet. I'll talk to my dad about it all, though, and I know we'll have to face it one day, maybe soon.

OP posts:
ElizabethVonArnim · 09/07/2024 06:22

Sorry to hear that you have both had such difficult times. It is very hard.

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Sailawaygirl · 09/07/2024 21:28

Your post shows so much care and thought. You sound like your supporting your mum amazingly! In my experience ( as a health care worker) hospital Dr's aren't always very good at talking and even recognising when it's time for a EOL approach. They think more in short term about how to get someone well enough to be discharged and don't always see the bigger picture. ( it takes time and discussions with family and looking notes ect that there isn't always time for ).

If you are thinking about if a more palliative approach would be best I would see if you could raise this with Dr and maybe the speech therapists looking after her swallow. You might be able to get the hospice team to come onto the ward or chat to you too. There are no rights and wrongs and it sounds like you know what your mums wishes would be in lots of situations.
It's sounds like a difficult cycle of dehydration and IV fluids and I think your right in wondering if its best to keep it going. If your mum wasn't improving with the IV fluids it would be eaiser descion. I had a relative in a similar situation ( although not dementia) and we felt that they wanted to stop eating and drinking and really resited when Dr's tried fluids.

So sorry your going through this.

ElizabethVonArnim · 09/07/2024 21:58

Thank you for this kind message. As you say, if Mum wasn't improving with IV fluids it would be an easier decision not to push for them and to recognise an EOL situation. However, after fluids overnight last night, Mum has been laughing, singing and eating chocolate and gave Dad a kiss today - she recognised him for the first time in a few days. It feels impossibly to even consider withholding something that is almost like magic in its effect. For now, it feels like it was right to push. I know it won't be sustainable forever.

All my siblings are either very pregnant or have very new babies, too (three babies within two months of each other) and I so want this to be a happy time for them all. I feel guilty for even thinking about it that way, but if we can keep Mum going for a bit, at the best level possible, there's hope that their new-baby phase won't be overshadowed by the sadness we all know is to come sometime soonish.

Fingers crossed the boost lasts for a while this time. 🤞

OP posts:
Hairyfairy01 · 09/07/2024 22:09

I have found that the vast majority of doctors are very poor at having the EOL conversation. I guess you need to think how many more times is realistic to have the IV fluids? They do perk people up so it's really hard, but it's not a long term solution sadly. You sound very sensible and a very caring daughter. Is there a nurse or doctor that you feel you could talk to about this, someone who knows her well?

HFJ · 10/07/2024 07:59

I echo other contributions around your being caring and thoughtful.

One thing to bear in mind is that it’s quite normal for active dying to include fits and bursts of lucidity and perkiness. Also, that if thirst and hunger are reduced, then artificially hydrating and feeding could overwhelm the body if the body can no longer process high volumes of food and liquids.

ElizabethVonArnim · 26/09/2024 06:30

My mum died yesterday. She was in a nursing home where we'd managed to get a funded placement. She had only been there five weeks and we were very happy with the care they were giving her.

We've had a family gathering this month - my sister who lives in America has been visiting with her family and my brother who lives in the north has been down to see her with his children. Mum recognised both of them and met and held both the new babies. My other brother who lives locally and whose baby was quite premature and in the NICU hasn't been in to visit for the last few weeks but was around a lot while mum was in hospital over the summer, and my eldest brother has visited regularly throughout but not for the last few weeks. Overall, it really feels as if the whole family has had a chance to see mum settled in the nursing home. My dad visited the evening before.

Apparently the care staff gave mum a drink and had a good interaction - she was smiling and so forth - at 4am. They checked at 7.30 and she was sleeping comfortably, and by 8am she was dead. It's such a good way to go. I feel very oddly happy that she had such a good end. My last visit on Thursday was a really lovely, special one - she recognised me for the first time in a few days and gave me lots of kisses and said 'oh yes yes yes' when she saw me - she couldn't speak much at all and something meaningful in context was a huge effort for her. I sang her some songs we used to sing when I was little and she went to sleep.

It is so strange. Everything has revolved around looking after mum for so long and now that stops.

I'm so, so glad that we kept insisting over the summer on the iv fluids in hospital - the level of recovery that created I genuinely think kept mum going enough to have those last chances to see the new babies and have those meaningful moments with each of us before she died. I hope it means that none of us feel that we have anything unfinished there. My sister from the USA is in the UK and France for the next two months so will be able to come to the funeral much more easily than it would have been.

Before the dementia, my mum really loved for others. I know it's not really possible, but if she had planned this on purpose to help us all, she couldn't have done it better.

OP posts:
unsync · 26/09/2024 09:27

Thank you for coming back and telling us. It is so difficult to know what to do for the best when caring for an elderly parent and I'm sure that sharing tour experience will help many others in a similar situation.

I'm sorry you've lost your mother, it's a really hard thing to go through, but the love you have for her really shows in what you have posted. 💐

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