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Elderly parents

NC mother and my almost grown up kids

29 replies

Currentquandry · 31/05/2024 16:47

I will try and keep this concise but apologies if I fail! I've found this topic so incredibly helpful so I am hoping the collective wisdom here can help steer me through a challenging situation.

My mother and stepfather (who is now dead) were active alcoholics throughout my childhood and teenage years. Before my mother met and married my stepfather, I often took a parent role with my mother. From around six/seven years old, I took on a lot of responsibility for my own care and helped her when she was very drunk and unable to cope (helping her take out her contact lenses for instance and preparing my own lunches for school). My stepfather was also an alcoholic and though a gentle and generous person, I discovered he was deeply dysfunctional when I hit my teen years and he became a peeping tom when I was undressing/dressing. Obviously this was distressing but it was also hard to prove (he'd peep through cracks in my door and then shoot into the bathroom next to my room where he left the tap running as an excuse to be there). I felt a weird sense of relief when I caught him and he eventually admitted it. I eventually told my mother but she felt unable to leave him -- I think she was terrified of losing the security she had got for us. I understood at the time, or thought I did, but once I had my own children, I struggled with her decision not to protect me. However, at the time I recognised that other people had gone through much worse and that he never physically abused me. (There were also problems with my father and stepmother but these aren't relevant to this thread so I will spare everyone that bit!)

My mother ticks almost every box on the narcissist personality disorder list. It is only recently (I'm now in my 50s) that I realised that much of my personality has been heavily informed by being the child of a narcissist (parentification/enmeshment etc.) and the child of an alcoholic (people pleasing/fawning etc.). And I just thought I had a bit of a pushover personality :)

I've tried for decades to establish a healthy, positive relationship with my mother despite her following a regular cycle of using me as an emotional punchbag and alternating controlling and criticising behaviours with a form of love bombing. I kept empathising with her because she is so obviously deeply unhappy and she had an unhappy childhood herself. She has lost nearly all her friends with her behaviour, her family is overseas (and she falls out with them too!) and so I am all she has (no siblings). It's always been clear that I am her focus and she has often said I am her reason for being (as well as saying how different her life would have been if I had been her mother). I felt that it would be cruel to withdraw from her even though she has become increasingly difficult. The decision to keep trying to make the situation work was made even more difficult when she minimised what my stepfather did during a row and showed that she really didn't see it as a big deal. But recently I realised that her behaviour was also starting to affect my daughter (who has MH issues of her own) and that was my line in the sand. After an interaction with my daughter that left her upset and anxious, I realised that I was in danger of letting my mother damage another generation and my own loving nuclear family which I have worked so hard to create and make happy. My long-suffering husband has struggled to see me hurt by my mother's behaviour over the years though he is always supportive. I have realised that he has often fallen down my priority list in favour of trying to keep my mother happy and I hate myself for that. Two months ago, when I realised that my mother had trampled over some boundaries I set up for my daughter I decided that that was enough and stopped communicating with her. My husband was completely supportive and my daughter relieved (she finds her VERY hard). The situation is also difficult because we look after a property of my mother's, I order all her medication (which we continue to do) and she has been contributing to my son and daughter for uni etc (we expect to be cut off soon).

But getting to the point (finally!) the advice I need concerns my son. He is nearly 18 and has an okay relationship with my mother. He's fairly oblivious to what has gone on and I only recently told him about her drinking (she stopped for good maybe last summer). He doesn't know about my childhood and my daughter (who is a bit older) only knows some of it -- neither of them know about my stepfather for instance. My son commented the other day that we hadn't seen my mother for a while and my husband told him that we'd fallen out and said she had been difficult. My son finds it difficult to express his emotions so this will be difficult for him to manage. He's not yet mastered reading the room in terms of how people are feeling though he can be observant and kind.

I don't know what is appropriate to do here. I don't want to taint my son's relationship with my mother if he wants to see her -- but equally think she may try and use him to make comments/turn him against us (she has form for this). I don't want to upset him by sharing too much but also feel he is probably old enough to handle the idea that adults can have difficult relationships.

The whole thing is complicated by my daughter's struggles and the fact that my husband is also a little fragile (he had a breakdown some years ago and so relates to our daughter's struggles painfully well).

I want to do the right thing by everyone but also know that I can't go back to the way it was with my mother before even if we do re-establish contact at some point. I was giving her so much time (despite being the primary earner for the family so I was already time poor) and know that my priority really needs to be my daughter and the rest of my family. I'm also struggling not to feel overwhelmed by the emotional impact of all the different elements.

I've probably put too much in here and sorry if it's all a bit garbled.

So the TLDR version would be: if you have gone NC with a parent, how did you handle the relationship of the parent with your children if they were older teens? How much did you share? Did you encourage them to continue the relationship or not?

Thank you and sorry for the lengthy post -- I didn't do very well on keeping it down I realise!

OP posts:
Currentquandry · 31/05/2024 17:31

Sorry about the crossed out text. Unintentional. Hoping this add on will bump it. Would be grateful for any thoughts.

OP posts:
EmotionalBlackmail · 31/05/2024 17:54

This is a bit confusing as it doesn't sound like you're NC with her? Which would make a difference to how your children react to her.

How often do they/did they see her? My kid is still primary aged but other grandchildren are older and now adults. They've barely seen their grandparent in years as she never had a separate relationship with them or bothered with them much.

I'm careful how much access she has to my kid. We live too far away for it to be often or easy though, which helps. I don't want my mum repeating what she was like to me, so make sure she never has the opportunity.

Currentquandry · 31/05/2024 23:42

Thanks so much for replying. I'm a bit all over the place at the moment so I realise my post was very confusing! Thanks for trying to unpick it. I haven't had any contact with my mother for about two months. She lives very near to us. My kids would usually see her once a month/six weeks (I used to see her every week) so it's getting to a point where I feel I have to lead the way in terms of what my son does/doesn't do. The rest of us are consciously NC with her. He is only accidentally so (I would previously prompt him to see her or she would).

It's helpful to hear your perspective and what you say about how you have handled it. This is all new territory to me. Thanks again for your reply.

OP posts:
AcrossthePond55 · 31/05/2024 23:57

@Currentquandry

so it's getting to a point where I feel I have to lead the way in terms of what my son does/doesn't do.

I really don't think you do. He's 18 and unless he's very immature/young for his age, he should be able to 'find his own way' as far as whatever relationship he wants with his Gran.

But what you do need to do is be honest with him about why you are no longer in communication with your mother. You don't have to go into minute detail as far as specific incidences, just touch on the ways she has made you feel 'devalued' as a person. Then tell him that if he chooses to be in touch with her it is his decision, but that you will not for your own MH. And that you hope he will keep the lines of communication open with you about her if there is ever anything Gran says that leaves him confused or curious.

TheGirlattheBack · 01/06/2024 00:09

I’m also NC with parents but for longer than you. At 18 your son is old enough for you to explain more about the relationship issues than, “we’ve had a falling out”.

You mention he commented you haven’t seen them, but did he say actually say he wanted to see them now? If you, your dd and husband talk to him about your parents he can decide whether he wants to see them on his own. You can then forewarn him that they may make toxic comments about you.

I have explained to my DC why we don’t see my parents. (In age appropriate terms) They were horrified at some of the things my mother has said to me over the years. My DC fully understood that not all families are nice and are onboard with our NC decision.

Lastly, if he does decide he wants a relationship with them, do you think your son is safe with your Mum/StepDad?

Currentquandry · 01/06/2024 10:24

@AcrossthePond55 @TheGirlattheBack Thank you so much for your posts. You have suggested some very helpful phrases for me to use and your comments give me confidence that I am doing the right thing. I am still part way in the FOG so breaking away from the legacy of guilt and worry is hard.

My stepfather died some years ago so it is just my mother now.

The question of whether my son is safe is a one for me to think about. He seems not to be as affected by my mother's needling but that doesn't mean he isn't or hasn't been. And she could ramp up with him if he is her only connection to the family.

I have realised that this post was as much about me wanting reassurance that I wasn't being unreasonable or selfish in withdrawing from my mother as about how to handle approaching communicating the situation to my son. I have a long way to go.

Thank you all for your comments and thoughts, I really appreciate them and hope your own situations are calmer and easier to manage now.

OP posts:
AcrossthePond55 · 01/06/2024 17:34

@Currentquandry

He seems not to be as affected by my mother's needling but that doesn't mean he isn't or hasn't been.

Is she needling him or is it that she needles you in front of him?

Either way, I think that's why being open about 'who she is' with him is important. It needs to be couched in 'quiet but honest' terms based on how she's treated you and how it made you feel/affected you rather than a 'lecture' about her 'narc behaviour', I think. And then answering any questions honestly. You can always 'strengthen' the words used later should you need to, including the behaviour of your SF and her 'nonresponse' to it. And he needs to understand that he also has a right to end any relationship with her should he choose to do so somewhere down the line and that you will always back him up if he does.

Although if she's needling him you may need to take a stronger stance and explain to him why what she says to him isn't right and give him a few examples. It could be that he's already internalizing it without realizing it, just as you probably did at one time. Or it could be that he 'hears' it but has the personality type to just think "Oh that's Gran, she's full of shit".

I have realised that this post was as much about me wanting reassurance that I wasn't being unreasonable or selfish in withdrawing from my mother

It is never unreasonable or selfish to withdraw from someone who is unkind to us or who damages our mental health, no matter who that person is.

rickyrickygrimes · 01/06/2024 21:14

I've tried for decades to establish a healthy, positive relationship with my mother.

this is where your post should begin and end. It’s not going to happen, however much you want it to. Your mother is not capable of this so stop banging your head against this particular wall.

I want to do the right thing by everyone.
you can’t. Who’s your priority here? I can tell you that my non-narcissistic mum would put her grandchildren first, before anyone, including herself. Your mum will not do that. She will do exactly the same to your children as she did to you, and yet you keep pushing them into the firing line? Why are you doing that?

CharlotteLucas3 · 01/06/2024 22:49

I think that your DS’s relationship with you, his dad and sister is far more important than him having a relationship with your mother. There’s too much danger of her manipulating him and trying to get him to take her side.

If he insists on seeing her you need to make it very clear that he must take everything she says with a pinch of salt and not immediately believe her. I think it’s important for everyone to understand narcissistic behaviours from an early age so they might not waste years of their lives working it out for themselves. But even if he knows, he won’t be immune from the effects….I’ve been glued to Dr Ramani videos for years and I still find the behaviours almost impossible to deal with.

Currentquandry · 03/06/2024 12:58

@AcrossthePond55 "It is never unreasonable or selfish to withdraw from someone who is unkind to us or who damages our mental health, no matter who that person is."

Thank you so much for this. You have no idea how needed those words were. Also thank you for your sound, calm and sensible advice. I talked to my son yesterday and tried to follow it (as well as other PPs' helpful contributions). He's not very expressive so it's hard to know how he has processed it but I've said we can revisit the subject at any time.

Thank you again for your kindness. I still feel like I'm walking across boggy ground and it's hard to find a solid path. The wisdom of strangers is helping!

OP posts:
Currentquandry · 03/06/2024 13:01

rickyrickygrimes · 01/06/2024 21:14

I've tried for decades to establish a healthy, positive relationship with my mother.

this is where your post should begin and end. It’s not going to happen, however much you want it to. Your mother is not capable of this so stop banging your head against this particular wall.

I want to do the right thing by everyone.
you can’t. Who’s your priority here? I can tell you that my non-narcissistic mum would put her grandchildren first, before anyone, including herself. Your mum will not do that. She will do exactly the same to your children as she did to you, and yet you keep pushing them into the firing line? Why are you doing that?

Thank you @rickyrickygrimes your robust comments were needed. I have tried to keep my kids from the firing line over the years, despite being accused by my mother of being a helicopter parent (that was fine with me. Better than exposing them to danger! But it is good to hear your emphasis. My priority is my children, always. And thank you so much for your opening paragraph too spot on and completely right!

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Currentquandry · 03/06/2024 13:03

Tried to edit out the strike through. I use dashes a lot and keep forgetting they mess up my Mumsnet posts!

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Currentquandry · 03/06/2024 13:08

@CharlotteLucas3 Thank you so much. I agree with every single word you've said.

Every PP has helped me enormously. I can't afford the therapy I definitely need at the moment but the collective wisdom of Mumsnet is filling that void extremely well.

For those of you who have been NC with your mother for a while now, how did you deal with the first Mother's Day, birthday and Christmas?

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Finleyandfigg · 03/06/2024 13:16

I went no contact with my father and stepmother when my son was about eight years old. I have always been very honest with my son using age appropriate language to explain that they didn’t treat me very well growing up and were cruel and physically and emotionally abusive (I left off the sexual abuse by father). I explained that this emotional abuse had continued into adulthood and that I was finding it difficult to be around them. He responded by telling me that grandad used to shout at him to make him cry. This bolstered my view that I’d done the right thing. My son is mid 20’s now and has had no contact with them since. I’ve told him it’s up to him whether he sees them, but he doesn’t want to (which I’m relieved about).

I would highly recommend emdr therapy to put your childhood to rest. It did me the power of good in helping me move on.

Beamur · 03/06/2024 13:22

I am LC with my Dad.
I've been totally honest with my DD why that is. I don't facilitate a relationship between my Dad and her. He has no way of contacting her directly and I don't intend to ever offer it. DD has no interest in forming a relationship with him either.
I think I came to a realisation a long time ago that he was never going to be any different and I was just making myself unhappy in trying to create a normal connection with him.
He remarried and has a wife and a DD and frankly, it's their job if he needs anything as he gets older. I will not be helping in any shape or form.
Apart from the odd bit of birthday present money I wouldn't accept anything from him either - as you're finding out shortly, gifts from narcissists come with strings attached.
My advice, keep NC or LC and try to ditch the guilt. She's treated you appallingly your whole life. Well done for breaking the cycle with your own family. Don't hide your truth from your children and protect them from her.

MothralovesGojira · 03/06/2024 14:06

@Currentquandry
I am 35+years of being NC with my mother.
I have always been honest with my DC as to why this is and they accepted my reasons but have always known that they can ask questions if they have any - and they have/did which I always answered factually & with candour.
I went NC when I was 17 after an early life of almost every abuse you can think of and I don't regret it for a nanosecond. My mother met my oldest DC (via a family member) when they were young but my youngest never has because my mother could never follow any requests or boundaries and I cut all their contact with DC1 after she trampled over my reasonable expectations for her behaviour after only three contact sessions. It just confirmed that she hadn't changed and I felt no guilt at cutting her off. My DC have always known that they could contact her if they wished but they never have. She had her chance but blew it.
I sought to make our own traditions for important events like birthdays and Christmas and that's what makes us 'family'.

I would say one thing - the secrets that we keep because we feel that we have to 'protect' those we love do nothing but poison the safety that we try to create.

AcrossthePond55 · 03/06/2024 14:39

Currentquandry · 03/06/2024 12:58

@AcrossthePond55 "It is never unreasonable or selfish to withdraw from someone who is unkind to us or who damages our mental health, no matter who that person is."

Thank you so much for this. You have no idea how needed those words were. Also thank you for your sound, calm and sensible advice. I talked to my son yesterday and tried to follow it (as well as other PPs' helpful contributions). He's not very expressive so it's hard to know how he has processed it but I've said we can revisit the subject at any time.

Thank you again for your kindness. I still feel like I'm walking across boggy ground and it's hard to find a solid path. The wisdom of strangers is helping!

You're welcome. I figure we're all on this Earth together and should help each other when we can. The time will come when you too 'pay it forward' and others will benefit from the things you experienced, good and bad.

My DS2 wasn't very expressive either. I'd try to talk to him about 'important things' but wasn't sure if he really heard me because he never said much. But now that he's in his 30s I realize that the things I said to him in his teens were heard by him even if he didn't say much at the time. So I'm sure your son heard you, too. Sometimes they just have to silently weigh our words and digest them. You left the lines of communication open and that's the important thing.

Currentquandry · 03/06/2024 18:05

What a lovely post @AcrossthePond55 Thank you for your kindness and wisdom. I do try and will continue to try to pay it forward. Your help has been invaluable. It is also incredibly reassuring to hear the experience of talking to your DS2. You are so right that we need to allow time and space for our children to digest what we say. I will trust to time and more communication to do its work.

And to all the PPs. I am sorry you have all had to go through similar (and clearly worse in many cases). I applaud and admire your strength and thank you for sharing your advice and experiences.

@MothralovesGojira "I would say one thing - the secrets that we keep because we feel that we have to 'protect' those we love do nothing but poison the safety that we try to create." This hit me powerfully. It's beautifully put and is so very true. I am trying to live by a different approach now but as you know, when you've been trained as a secret-keeper it feels so transgressive when you start to let them out. But also liberating!

Thank you all.

OP posts:
redskydarknight · 03/06/2024 22:03

I went NC with my parents last year. I'm fairly sure they are both narcisstic and a lot of your post resonates (although my parents are not alcoholics they had different destructive behaviours). I kept my relationship going for as long as I did, partly because I thought they deserved to have a relationship with their grandchildren.

After making the decision to go NC I spoke to both my children (then 19 and 17) about my reasons. I also explained that they were old enough to decide for themselves whether they wanted to keep in touch with their grandparents and that I would support them in whatever decision they made.

I thought I had protected them from the worst of my parents' behaviours. However, after talking to them they both said that they had never liked my parents, and had pretended to get on for the sake of family harmony. My daughter then said that her main reason for coming on visits was to support me as she knew I found dealing with my parents difficult.
I now realise that toxic parent = toxic grandparent. My children were wiser and more aware than I was. I wish I'd cut ties earlier. And I wish I'd spoken more to my children earlier.

keffie12 · 03/06/2024 22:23

It's not unreasonable to take care of you. Thar you must do.

Tell your son in simple terms that "you had a very difficult childhood with your mom, and it has continued into adulthood."

Tell him, "You don't want to bore him with all the details. However, you have reslised that it is affecting your life. He can make his own choices with his grandma. However, take what she says with a pinch of salt. " Leave it at that.

There are two links below, which is support for you. One is Al-Anon, which
Is for families of someone who has someone in/around alive or dead,/drinking/non-drinking as alcoholism is a family illness.

The other is for ACAADC (Adult Children of Alcoholic and Dysfunctional Childhoods"

It's self-explanatory. You can attend meetings live or online. I have membership for both fellowships.

Please have a look at these links for you and your family - you deserve support.

al-anonuk.org.uk/

www.adultchildrenofalcoholics.co.uk/

Currentquandry · 04/06/2024 18:13

redskydarknight · 03/06/2024 22:03

I went NC with my parents last year. I'm fairly sure they are both narcisstic and a lot of your post resonates (although my parents are not alcoholics they had different destructive behaviours). I kept my relationship going for as long as I did, partly because I thought they deserved to have a relationship with their grandchildren.

After making the decision to go NC I spoke to both my children (then 19 and 17) about my reasons. I also explained that they were old enough to decide for themselves whether they wanted to keep in touch with their grandparents and that I would support them in whatever decision they made.

I thought I had protected them from the worst of my parents' behaviours. However, after talking to them they both said that they had never liked my parents, and had pretended to get on for the sake of family harmony. My daughter then said that her main reason for coming on visits was to support me as she knew I found dealing with my parents difficult.
I now realise that toxic parent = toxic grandparent. My children were wiser and more aware than I was. I wish I'd cut ties earlier. And I wish I'd spoken more to my children earlier.

Your post resonated with me in turn, thank you. Although my son still feels like he has a functional relationship with my mother, my daughter recently said that she felt my mother was a shadow on our family. That was when I realised I had to break away, hard though it has been and continues to be. Thank you so much for replying and I hope your NC status is providing more relief than unhappiness. It's comforting to know there are others who can relate (though of course I wish for all our sakes that we weren't in a position too!)

OP posts:
Currentquandry · 04/06/2024 18:15

keffie12 · 03/06/2024 22:23

It's not unreasonable to take care of you. Thar you must do.

Tell your son in simple terms that "you had a very difficult childhood with your mom, and it has continued into adulthood."

Tell him, "You don't want to bore him with all the details. However, you have reslised that it is affecting your life. He can make his own choices with his grandma. However, take what she says with a pinch of salt. " Leave it at that.

There are two links below, which is support for you. One is Al-Anon, which
Is for families of someone who has someone in/around alive or dead,/drinking/non-drinking as alcoholism is a family illness.

The other is for ACAADC (Adult Children of Alcoholic and Dysfunctional Childhoods"

It's self-explanatory. You can attend meetings live or online. I have membership for both fellowships.

Please have a look at these links for you and your family - you deserve support.

al-anonuk.org.uk/

www.adultchildrenofalcoholics.co.uk/

Your post made me cry (in a good way). This thread is providing so much help and support.

I have been meaning to look at Al Anon for years so thank you so much for the prompt and encouragement. And the other link looks brilliant too, thank you so very much.

OP posts:
Currentquandry · 04/06/2024 18:29

Just to add that last night I re-read my opening post and my first thought was how whiny I sounded. I found myself thinking that none of what I had experienced was really "that bad", especially in light of the extremes of abuse I am acutely aware that others have gone through. This has been a familiar mantra and thought process throughout my life. I then found myself going over other events, other words and actions that had caused me distress and had to fight the urge to post it all as an add on, in an attempt to prove I was worthy of all your empathy and help. But by the end, when I had read on through the comments, I was in tears at the generosity, wisdom and clarity of the posts. I recently read that children of alcoholics often take full responsibility for the happiness of their alcoholic parent because that is less scary psychologically than recognising how unstable their parental care is. It explained to me my tendency to accept fault and responsibility for pretty much everyone around me. To take on and do whatever is needed to keep everyone happy. I have to fight so hard to not take that feeling to the extremes I have done (especially with my mother). It's not going to be easy but I can do it for my children even if I struggle to do it for myself.

Sorry. That was a bit of a ramble! But I won't delete it as I want to make clear to every PP how much this thread has given me.

I wish each and every one of you all good things and I am sincerely sorry you have been through what you have.

OP posts:
redskydarknight · 04/06/2024 20:43

OP - I'd recommend the "Insight" series of podcasts by Katie McKenna and Helen Villiers. They talk predominantly about being brought up in narcisstic families and the lasting impacts this can have. I've found them really helpful when breaking away from my own family.

keffie12 · 05/06/2024 14:07

@Currentquandry Forgot to add. I had to learn the difference between unhealthy secrets, privacy, and what appropriate to share and not with children.

Age appropriate children need to know some information. We are only as sick as our secrets. John Bradshaw wrote, "Family Secrets - What you don't know can hurt you."

You will find it secondhand on Amazon or the like.

My childhood was shrouded in secrets and lies, though professional middle class.

By God, the title of that book is so true - it has been a big part of my healing through ACAADF. I spoke about the above.

You shed tears as much as you need to. Don't let anyone tell you not to. Years are healing and healthy.

If we weren't meant to cry, we wouldn't have tearducts.