No Power of Attorney?

[WhirlyBird1]

My parents are in their 80s and we’ve never had discussions around what their future will look like in terms of care, finances etc.

The topic of Power of Attorney came up in conversation recently and I asked if it was something they had thought about, they made lots of jokes and circled around the topic without giving me an answer. They have form for this as they (understandably) don’t like talking about reaching the end of life. The only bit of solid information they gave is that they do not want to go into a nursing home, yet provided no alternative options for care should they need it. Basically, they have nothing in place and will not communicate their wishes.

The conversation has been playing on my mind as I know this will inevitably fall on my shoulders in future and I’ll have no clue what their wishes are or how to handle it. Will I even be allowed to handle it? Who will make these decisions if they lose mental capacity without a POA in place?

I’m really clueless about the whole thing and hoping for advice on how to get through to them.

Medical decisions are made by the medical staff with the consent of the patient (or their POA if they lack capacity). That includes things like consenting to vaccinations. The NoK or POA can give them an indication of what the patient would have wanted in terms of treatment but they will need to have explicitly got in writing things like Do Not Resuscitate or not wanting active treatment like antibiotics otherwise the medical staff will push everything they've got at them to keep them going!

Finances wise social services would have to take over or you'd have to get guardianship which is expensive and takes ages.

POA isn't for end of life. It's for if you end up without capacity to manage your own affairs. Even younger people really should have one because things like strokes can happen to younger people too.

If they really won't do a POA then all you can do really is explain that, whilst they might say they don't want to go into a home, realistically you can only provide ... so it might be inevitable. Only a small proportion of people do end up in a home though.

Do you know if any of their friends have POA set up? The only way I can get my DM to sort anything like this out is if someone she knows has already done it - or often not done it and ended up in a total mess because of that!

Wow!

remind them that P.O.A isn't only for being "old".

Me and my DH are in our 40s and ours is all set up..... we could be hit by a bus and end up in a coma at any time in our lives.

Also do they realise that when you set up P.O.A you arnt (normally) giving it straight away.... it just means that all the paper work is complete so it can happen at the point a medical person realises you no longer have capacity.... and while you have capacity you carry on as the only person able to sign for yourself etc.

Why don't you sort your own and suggest they do theirs at the same time.....

Just like a will, its something that you are likely to need eventually anyway, unless you just have a heart attack and die suddenly or something like that, so the sooner it's sorted the better.

If they wait until perhaps they have dementia or similar it won't be able to be done, because at that point, they dont have the capacity to make the decisions for themselves so explain it HAS to be done while they are fit and healthy.

Good luck, and sort your own at the same time

If they'll talk to you about it, try to pitch it as a "just in case" thing. "Just in case you are in an accident and I need to authorise something for you", "Just in case you have a fall and I need to arrange someone to come in for you," etc.
I got one done for a family member that way. It was laborious, but I got it done.

Tell them what the alternative is, which is very expensive.

Say you're happy to sort one out but if they don't give you the tools to help, you'll not be able to intervene at all.

POA isn't just about medical issues. You also need one for running their financial affairs if they lose the ability to do so. And if they wish to remain at home with visiting carers for as long as possible, then someone has to arrange how to pay them.

If no POA is in place, you have to apply to the Court of Protection - and this is an incredibly bureaucratic and drawn-out process

OP I feel your pain. My dm is the same, but luckily still in her early 70s and touch wood fit and healthy (for now).

Me and dh still need to get ours done too. We are late 40s/early 50s. So I suppose I can't exactly impose it on her if I haven't done it yet either!

I got on very well with my parents but I wouldn't let them mess around with not doing wills or POAs.
I told them they can obviously write what they want and appoint who they want but they aren't going to mess me around wanting me to help when my hands would be tied from lack of having POA. It was all good natured but I meant it.

In the end they both got everything sorted and felt much better that everything was discussed and sorted.

Since my Dad died my Mum and I have 'future proofed' all her finances and bills etc. It gives her and I a lot of peace of mind. I have full access to all her banking with the POA including a POA debit card. I am also listed with all her utilities etc. It's so useful as her hearing and sight isn't great which means I can call or email on her behalf.
When my Dad died I was able to sort everything out so my Mum didn't have to do a thing. It made everything so much easier. My lovely Dad had even given me a neatly written list of every single password which was brilliant.

If I hadn't gently bullied the, into doing POAs then everything would be so much harder.

I'm currently in the process of applying for guardianship for mum. It is expensive but you can apply for legal aid. The cost of it comes out of your parents account not yours, although you might have to pay up yourself initially. It does take a long time but if your parents are blocking hospital beds like my mum is, they can be bumped up the waiting list. Ultimately social services will make all decisions regarding care needs and if you don't have poa or guardianship, you have no say in the decision made. They do try to involve family but legally you have no rights over care. If they need a care home,then it doesn't matter what they would like. Note, this only applies if your parents are deemed without capacity.

I had a nightmare when my Dad died of cancer (diagnosis to death in under 5 months) and we just didn't get time to put a POA application through even though it was one of the first things that the palliative care nurse mentioned. This meant that my sister was able to cause absolute havoc with Dad's care, to the point that he had to go into a hospice (She'd put him into withdrawal as she didn't agree with his medications) and then a nursing home rather being able to die at home as he wanted to. Seeing what she put Dad through was enough of a spur to send DH and I to a solicitor to have a medical POA for each other and I have a financial one for him as he owns the business we both work in.

Thank you all for replying. Sorry to hear some of you are in the same situation and impressed to hear some of you have your own affairs in order already!

It’s a good point raised about having a PoA of my own. I like the idea of letting them know I’m arranging my own PoA and they should do the same, perhaps that will spur them on.

They have friends with PoA, some of whom have signed a percentage of their homes over to DC. They are wilfully burying their heads at this point. If sorting my own affairs doesn’t work, I’ll have to take a sterner approach and let them know I will not be applying for guardianship and their fate will lay with social services. I don’t know if I’d truly go through with that but I have read about the difficulties of applying for guardianship and it upsets me to think they would knowingly put me in this position.

Do they use email? I also have DF who tends to react in a jokey way when I talk about serious things, in a deflection/ uncomfortable way, but he's actually very sensible when he has time to consider things privately and reflectively. I'd be tempted to send a long email setting out your concerns - not in a threatening way but in a supportive way. You could spell out that you want them to have as much control as possible over their life as they get older, rather than social services having to make decisions (this thought horrified my DP). If it's true, it's also an opportunity to spell out that, while you'd want to help and support them, you wouldn't be in a position to offer hands on care or have them live with you if their needs increased, so you want to have things set up so that you can help them ensure they can access the kind of support they prefer. You can frame it in a jokey 'of course we all hope you'll still be playing golf at 103' kind of way, but also point out the possible scenarios where this might not be the case. If one is more frail than the other, it might work better to frame it in a 'I need to make sure I'm able to help arrange support for DM/DF if you're hit by a bus next Tuesday' - that works for mine. (My DF is an 'oh just stick a pillow over my face' type, but he does realise that DM would be totally incapable if anything happened to him. NB I've still got a long way to go with mine, but at least the conversation is underway,.)

In England it’s ‘Deputyship’ not guardianship. You have to make an application the the court of protection which is way more costly and takes a lot more time than putting a PoA in place. POA has to be registered with the OPG before it can be used. Registrations are not quick atm. It is Important if they are already in 80s to register it when you make it as don’t want the registration delay when it suddenly needs to be used.

You could tell them what happened to a lady I know that had no POA,either financial or medical. Social services did indeed take over her affairs,and made a right pigs ear of it. She went into a nursing home,but they messed up her finances unbelievably. They didn't cancel the rent or the BT telephone contract on her home,so that thousands of pounds were needlessly paid out for over four years! And they lost her will. She definitely had one,as family friends had seen it,and she kept all her paperwork filed very methodically as she was a secretary before she retired and everything was very organised. Social services took all the paperwork as the relatives weren't allowed to touch it,and now can't find the will and claim that there never was one in the first place.

I'm not exaggerating,this has happened and there seems to be no comeback about the miss handling of her affairs.

Parents refused to sign POA. DF had to go to hospital with pneumonia. DM with advanced dementia was v upset. We brought her to stay here, and with my DSis, week about, while he recovered. After four weeks, DM's behaviour escalated; she had to be sectioned and ended up in a Mental Health Unit with poorly DF as her next of kin in another hospital.
After 10 weeks, DF was discharged from hospital. However, four days later he had a massive accident in their home and fell from the upper landing, never regaining consciousness.

DM, therefore under section with no POA and no next of kin, was under the care of the social work team for the next seven months while we applied for Guardianship. (Scotland).

It was an awful mess. For the subsequent eight years in a care home we had to pay the OPG fees and submit accounts and receipts for all her transactions.
OP, if they won't, they won't, however, doing your own. and inviting them to do theirs at the same time is a good idea.
If they absolutely flat refuse, two things might make it easier for you...
Get absolutely all their household bills on direct debits so they come out of your parents' accounts every month.
Try to see if they will let you be a co-signature on a current account / online banking so you can have access to funds to pay bills for the one 'left behind'