What does lack of LPA look like in worst case scenario?

[LoveRules]

My elderly frail and deaf mum will not entertain the idea of sorting out an LPA for health or finances.

She lives in her own four bedroomed house with £££ savings so could afford private care if/when it's needed.

Today I went for a consultation with a will writer for my own affairs and ended up hearing of why it's so important to have an LPA.

The will writer used to work in a senior role in NHS Social Care and explained that a person who has had a fall and in hospital on pain relief can easily be deemed not incontrol of their own faculties (albeit temporarily) and therefore will get placed into a state care facility at their own choosing - might be awful and might be miles from family/friends.

Even though my mum has savings without an LPA I will have no say in where she is placed and will not be able to access her finances.

I relayed all this shocking news to my mum who's response was as always one of annoyance for my suggesting it and how she is too ill to think of such things right now (oh the irony) besides she will sort out if she ever needs to.

My dad meanwhile has had an LPA for decades now.

I'm putting one in place to help deal with the horrendous situation if I were to become incapacited in any way.

I thought id share this here and also I'd be interested to hear of any real life experiences of grim scenarios so I can keep badgering my mum or get my brother her favourite to do.

The wills woman explained the courts step in like when a child is taken into care and the parents then have few rights in what happens next.

Proper grim. I can't believe anyone would willingly not have an LPA let alone a sensible clever woman like my mum. It's bizarre and upsetting tbh.

It is absolutely vital tbh. It's a real problem when people don't have one in place but have family. However, your DM is a grown woman with full capacity- I mean this kindly - and the choice remains hers, no matter how much you think it needs to be done. All you can do is educate her on the importance, but it sounds like you've already done that. You can't make her do one under duress.
I'm sorry OP. Tbh it is properly shit when things like this happen

My father won't entertain the idea either because he's 'not old' (he is). I've dropped the subject and he may raise it in the future if he 'comes up with a good idea'.....

If you needed to access her funds to pay for her care and manage her finances after she has lost capacity, you would have to make an application to the court of protection to be appointed as her ‘deputy’. This is a very long winded and expensive process compared to completing the LPA forms whilst she still has capacity. She has a say if she puts it in place whilst she has capacity. If she waits and loses capacity it will be decided for her and be more difficult and expensive.

It is an absolute nightmare. As we have learned to our cost.

Also I hope you are rich enough to cover all expenses until the court of protection sorts it out which can take many, many months.

It cost 10s of 1000s of pounds ( in our case care home costs) that took almost a year to get back.

I feel for you, unexpected events can happen, ask her does she wish to have limited choice, over her choices?
By that I mean, well what she would chose, if say sudden stroke or such event, would occur?
Ask her these questions………..she must be aware she is in her late winter years.
How much influence does her favoured son ,have and what are his views?
Maybe I see things differently with mid stage Parkinson’s.

It isn't all bad not having it but it would have made things potentially a lot easier to actually carry out her wishes.

We have the financial POA and that is a GODSEND. It would have been simply horrific trying to live the last two years without it. When we finally started using it, years after it was signed, I talked about it in terms of my mum making the decisions and me doing the legwork. Which was true - she would ring me in a panic that she'd run out of money and I could look online and explain what was happening and that she was OK. Then when she had a stroke it meant I could buy her things she needed but was no longer physically or mentally able to decide on. And I could battle engage with social services and have some official status to advocate for her.

We never got the health one and it is awful. Mum is long past making her own decisions and it means a succession of doctors who have never met her before make the decisions. I think either Mum didn't trust us, or thought we could somehow 'fix everything' with no legal authority. Tbh I think she had very little idea just how frail and incapable you can be and still be kept alive.

I would say that if she wants to be treated until the last gasp, to be carted into hospital and filled up with IV fluids and antibiotics amd surgery at every twitch, she'll be fine without PoA. If she doesn't want any of that, she needs to write it down.

Years ago - 10 years ago in fact - and it was 10 years ago this week - my mother's care home put her in hospital. She nearly died. The CQC had failed the care home on all counts - but didn't tell families. They DID inform Surrey's Social Services, who kept it secret. Later one of them said they didn't have responsibility for self-funding residents anyway.

So annoyed was I that the CQC continued to give this care home a 'Good' rating throughout the rest of the year, when I found out they'd failed it many months earlier I took it to the local press.

Surrey's Social Services never responded but they got to work. They got my other's subsequent care home to get a file out on me and carry out surveillance. They then hit us with a list of allegations, timed for Christmas, as the Council is wont to do. The ace in their pack is that we did not have LPA in Health & Welfare, and as my mother had been deemed to not have mental capacity, THEY were in control of her care, and could have us barred from seeing her. It is possible they realised we'd suspected the next care home - one in Reigate - of having her killed via dehydration, so called 'end-of-life' care. They tried to get to me using my mother as bait.

We outwitted them a bit, but the old saw about how your kids chose your parent's care home isn't true. They get to decide if you are on their radar and could exact retribution.

Another example is my Dad in hospital the week before the Coronation last year. It stank, his stats were fine, he'd recovered and we wanted him home. They tried every trick to stop it and only our producing a hard copy of the LPA in Health and Welfare allowed it. They pored over it for loopholes but found none. They were bloody toxic.

All this take place in Surrey and there is absolutely nothing anyone can do about it.

Here are two letters I've had in the press about it, one is the Mail, the other is the Metro from last year.

I think

That is strange because it's the opposite of what I've found with my parents in Surrey, but the thing is, without LPA you have no say. If you have an NHS Trust who wants to keep you alive despite all pain, they will do it, if you have one where they bump you off to save money, they'll do that too.

Google 'St Helier' and 'euthanasia' for a story on that in the local press from last year.

First off, there are two different POAs. 1) Health etc and 2) financial.

I do know a horror story about it. A friend, one of two estranged brothers, and their father v. elderly with dementia/bedridden at home for years. I think my friend's brother had financial POA but not health. (My friend had neither). The council seemed to be entirely and completely in charge of health decisions, - for example, they refused to allow my friend to visit his own father and took sides with the brother with financial POA.

I really don't know the details but I know the council had a lot of control over what happened and it wasn't good.

@LoveRules "I thought id share this here and also I'd be interested to hear of any real life experiences of grim scenarios so I can keep badgering my mum or get my brother her favourite to do.

The wills woman explained the courts step in like when a child is taken into care and the parents then have few rights in what happens next."

It's worse than when courts step in re child care, because with vulnerable elderly people it seems to be entirely in the hands of councils (which are incompetent and answerable to no-one).

Get your brother her favourite to convince her...[edit] or why not your dad?

We’ve been in that position and social services (whilst stressing that the final decision was theirs) did consult the family extensively about mum’s care needs. All the care homes suggested were local. Not many beds available but enough to give us a choice.

We did ask about a few in the neighbouring county and were dissuaded as it would have complicated funding with the different county councils.

We were encouraged to view the suggested care homes. We rejected one which had a poor rating and this was accepted without argument. It was made clear to us which ones social services would and wouldn’t pay for.

Mum’s house has to be sold, but without LPA we can’t do it so we’ve applied for Deputyship. Social Services helped us with this. It can take a long time and whilst it’s in progress, SS are paying the care home fees which we will have to reimburse once mum’s house is sold.

LPA would have speeded this up, but not having it has not been a disaster.

The social workers we’ve dealt with have been very kind and very helpful.

A respect form is what every elderly person needs with their own wishes and ceiling of care . POA is only relevant if MC is a problem.Quite complicated TBH

We've been really pleased to have the lpa for finance and its meant we can arrange care earlier then the LA would deem in necessary or at least more quickly than waiting for an assessment. We don't have health and welfare but to be honest we've been fully involved and consulted as nearest relatives and his wishes and feelings have been fully recorded on his health notes.

I think both the financial and the health and welfare ones are necessary. When FIL was in hospital after having a stroke DH being NOK seemed to count for nothing. DFIL would do neither. We have done the financial one for our son with a solicitor and I am going to do the health one myself on line and just get it checked over.

Absolutely essential for managing someone's affairs, even if they can manage day to day. Phone and broadband packages are on a 30 day rolling contract and if the dd is cancelled unexpectedly, a collections letter is issued. Its frightening for anyone, let alone anyone in their later years. The companies need LPOA before they can speak to anyone else.

Also, elderly people are vulnerable and have been known to agree to new contracts that are unsuitable for their needs. Sorting that type of mess out without LPOA is very tricky.

I had an elderly relative who wanted a new mobile so the toddled off to the shop and was sold a business package. He'd told them he needed it for his essential business, bless him. Luckily, it was sorted due to LPOA once we'd found out after two years. If it hadn't have been in place it would probably have turned into some sort of Bleak House affair.

Definitely a good idea. Without one it’s just an uphill slog during which you have to pay out ( or not) in the hope that this get resolved later. Even if you can access funds later it can be difficult to be proactive day to day. I’ve seen cases of funds being finally agreed to be released for care home but no funds for extras ( clothes etc) because that needed a new request. So difficult but elderly parents do think it won’t happen / that it’s not needed / that it won’t happen to them. I wonder if the charities have advice - sometimes they can say it in a way that gets through ..

We had this with my aunt, she refused to do them accusing us all of "being after her money"
Her affairs ended up being handled by the Court of Protection and we were unable to do anything to help her, it was all down to them, they decided what was best for her as a demented old lady, not her family who actually knew the real person and what they had liked/disliked. It was all very sad.

Thanks all.

I'm particularly worried for her as I'm about to move an hour away from her. I currently live 5 mins walk away and am always popping in, fetching prescriptions and taking her to the docs.
When I announced I was relocating she said she'd do the same but has been too ill to put house on the market.

I'm in the brace position for a prolonged shit storm tbh.

And for the poster who asked about my dad - He's in France they divorced thirty years ago

Oh and while I think of it I'm particularly annoyed (actually its worried) with her because she's opted to lead a maximum sedentary life for the past 40 years - done nothing but lie on the sofa and watch rolling news. So now has next to no muscle tone. The day when she can't get herself off a loo is rapidly approaching.

She took up smoking in the pandemic. She is asthmatic.

The self-sabotaging activities or lack of activities, OP , are further ways of her saying, You can’t tell me what to do.
My DF caught pneumonia and had to go into hospital. He was DM’s carer, and she reacted badly to being uprooted and was eventually sectioned. We explained to my DF in his hospital bed that we were stuffed if anything happened to him as all her decision making would be left to social workers. Only then did this hit home with two of them in separate hospitals.
Then things unexpectedly got worse as he was released from hospital only to fall downstairs a few days later and die.
So we had about a fortnight of cooperation right at the end but on his death, he left everything to her and so we had to apply to the OPG and that took about 7 months .
it’s different for you, with DF in France.

I’d tell her that it’s fine not to have POA / you are beyond caring. Tell her it’s her choice but she must do one thing. Could she please leave a folder or instructions for the social workers about her health wishes, her funeral, how they are to sell her home and dispose of her things as these are now off limits to you. Also tell her you will be incredibly sad when they rummage through her house looking for these things - but it’s her wish. And tell her it will break your heart when you see her treasured possessions left in an empty house that might be burgled while you wait for the courts and probate. But you respect her choices.

Very good strategy

Things I have had to use LPA (Finance) for:

Changing electricity supplier
Telling DWP of his change of address (state pension)
Ditto Attendance Allowance
Ditto HMRC
Cancelling a no longer required insurance

and that’s besides all the obvious bank and building societies things. Even the Council needed to see it when I was arranging carers and meals on wheels

There have been others which I can’t recall at the moment.

The upshot of no LPA is that nothing can be changed, no longer required services paid by direct debit can’t be cancelled, they can’t be moved to a cheaper fuel tariff, if anything goes wrong (overcharged for electricity) it can’t be sorted out because people won’t speak to you.

I would say that if she wants to be treated until the last gasp, to be carted into hospital and filled up with IV fluids and antibiotics amd surgery at every twitch, she'll be fine without PoA. If she doesn't want any of that, she needs to write it down.

My experience has been the contrary. I’ve had to make clear my dad’s desire to carry on as long as possible.

Good idea @Mum5net but truthfully would land very badly with my mum.
I'm beginning to see her as someone with some interesting personality traits. I think she probably is undiagnosed demand avoidance (a form of autism) so asking her to do anything will result in the opposite happening.

She would never get round to creating a useful folder or file.

In some ways it helps me absolve myself of guilt when some predictable crisis occurs after I've moved away and am busy with work.

I tried to explain to my partner how I wouldn't be jumping up in the middle of the night in response to a medical emergency for her if she can't do the basic necessities of LPA. I can dial an ambulance for her if needed.

I wash my hands of her. Her stubbornness makes me match it with a dramatic reduction in empathy and a ramp up of apathy.