About to sort POA but problems

[BeauticianNotMagician81]

I posted on here a while back about my Dad. I'm about to sort his POA. He gave my brother his bank card months ago to pay for his food shopping as Dad is immobile.

My brother has cut all contact over Christmas and sent me a photo of the bank card to do my Dads shopping. So I did the other day. (I live an hour and a half away. I got the food delivered to his house. Now he's accusing me and my sister (who lives abroad) of stealing his money. I can't afford to pay for his shopping every week. Plus I'm about to go and sort this POA next week and I expect him to pay for it and the application. He should have sorted it ages ago. He's always been obsessed with money and doesn't want anyone to have it. It's been heightened now as I think he is getting dementia but the health professionals don't agree. What do I do as I don't want to get into any trouble and in the midst of a cost of living crisis and just about to start on a house renovation on a budget every penny counts to us. I just don't want to be accused of anything when I'm trying to help him. He is so self absorbed.

What is your question?

If he still has capacity then he'll need to agree and sign for POA to be given to you.
If he doesn't have capacity then it's too late for him to grant you POA and you would need to apply to the Court of Protection for deputyship of his accounts.

Sorry my question is if he doesn't grant POA and I don't apply to the court then what happens. I might just get him to get his solicitor to do the POA if he is still seen as having capacity so we can't get accused of stealing. But what happens if he is seen as not having capacity. How does he access his accounts etc as he doesn't have a clue. He wants me to check his bank balance daily and I keep telling him I can't as it's not mine.

If he hasn't got capacity & you don't apply for Deputyship then Social Services would have to take over & apply for it.

Camn the duty social work desk at your local council (Google the number) and request crisis care and an urgent care needs assessment for your dad as a vulnerable adult.

Keep the records showing what you bought, and your brother's text. Do you have a receipt from the shop?

This is a mess. Your brother shouldn't have accepted your dad's bank card like that, he shouldn't have sent you an image of it, and you shouldn't have used it. But I get how these things happen. However, what has happened for your b to cut contact with a man who can't leave the house, to the extent that your b can't even bribg himself to organise shopping? Can your dad even move around the house to make his meals?

If he doesn't have capacity then POA isn't an option. It is applying to the court of protection which is extremely time consuming and expensive as Kate Garraway found out due to her poor husband lacking capacity and they didn't have POAs

However, if the health professionals think he has capacity I suggest you crack on if he is willing to grant it as it will save a whole load of grief later. Granting it doesn't mean you have to act so it would be side for him to appointed substitutes

If he is deemed to not have capacity the bank could theoretically freeze his account

Thank you for the information. I know my Dad shouldn't have given my brother his bank card. I can't get it back either. Can I act on the financial POA as soon as paperwork is done or do I have to wait for it to be granted? As soon as it is I'll get my Dad new cards ordered

I would wait until it is granted as you will have to show evidence of it being granted.

It's all so confusing. I wish we were taught this at school. I can't even speak to social services as I'm not on the contact list and the carers he's been having are beyond useless. I don't think they are actually doing anything.

A financial POA can be set up to be used as soon as registered rather than waiting for capacity to be lost.Make sure you complete the form correctly to ensure this is the position (there is an option)

Will your brother be on the POA, if not, will he have an issue not being involved. I think close relatives should be informed if someone else is setting it up.

My brother doesn't wish to have any involvement at all.

@BeauticianNotMagician81 that helps things, if your brother doesn't want to be involved. Is your sister going to be?

When setting up the POA, your dad will need someone to certify that he is happy to set it up, we used a neighbour of my mum's when we did hers, and that they know your dad (I think for 2 years, can't remember). You also need witnesses, and you must ensure everything is signed in the correct order. I think much of it can be done online now (was all paper when I did my mum's)

If he baulks at setting up the POA when it is explained to him, but still wants you to be able to help him, that will be tricky, as having that will make everything more clear cut. However, as a lesser thing you may be able to get third party access just for his bank account - I've had that for some years for my mother's Natwest account initially to pay bills when she was still overseas. If what he needs and wants is for someone else to be able to pay bills for him and tell him about the account, that could suffice. You would be able to get your own separate card on his account. I agree that if your brother no longer wants to be involved the card he was sent should be destroyed and/or replaced.

Good luck with it all, sounds difficult overall. Work out what you can actually do what your boundaries need to be, and how you will hold to them. I suspect a certain amount of "broken record" repetition may be needed, eg "Dad I spent £X on your shopping last week and it was delivered to you on Friday".

Oh and definitely get yourself added to the contact list if you are doing this sort of thing for him.

@crumblingschools thank you. I've arranged for his solicitor to come over to the house next week to be the witness for the certification. I was about to pay for it online and I've realised I've got to make two applications for each part. 🤦🏼‍♀️

@GrassWillBeGreener my dad has said he wants me to be POA. I've explained to him it's about his care as well and that when he no longer has capacity he will be trusting me to do what's best. I think he's just getting the start of his decline now. Completely lucid at times but then very angry and confused at other times. We always knew he would be quite difficult in later life as he's always been very stubborn. This is just horrible . I've spent all day on the phone today to various people, social workers, carers, solicitor and I've gone from angry to crying. 😢

Oh that's really hard. I don't know if virtual hugs are a thing here, but have one from me anyway.

@BeauticianNotMagician81 I’m so sorry you are going through this. My parents didn’t want POAs when my dad’s health declined, his mental capacity then dropped like a stone and it was then too late (mixture of cancer and dementia). It was an absolute nightmare, he died whilst we were trying to sort finance for care home. My mum then agreed straight away to organise POA for her as she saw how not having one added to an already stressful situation.

I am glad your dad is happy to have POA, hopefully will help ease the burden. Also sending a virtual hug 💐

@BeauticianNotMagician81
What @GrassWillBeGreener said is perfectly correct.
Whilst I was waiting for my mum's POA to be finalised, I was granted Third Party Access to her bank account, meaning I could deal with her day to day finances. This was in 2009, when cheques were still around!
It meant that I could write cheques for her for stuff like care home fees, meaning I didn't have to wait till I visited, (I lived over an hour away), to get her to write cheques. I also had a debit card for her account.
I remember the process being easy and painless to set up, but that was in the days when you could go into your bank branch and deal with a human being!

You have to wait till it’s registered with OPG because whoever you want to use it with will want to see the copy with the OPG stamp. But if you’ve ticked the right bix, you won’t have to wait till he’s lost capacity

Whoever said you have to tell close relatives… there’s provision to list someone who must be informed when the POA is registered. You don’t have to use it. It made a lot of sense with the old EPA which wasn’t registered until you lost capacity, not sure it’s so useful with a LPA.

Your brother needs to return the card to your father now that he wishes not to be involved any longer.

Does your father have mental capacity? Has anyone formally assessed this?