Nan running out of money to pay home what options do we have?

[Thisisanothertime]

My grandmother went into a home about 6 months ago she was staying with me before that but the level of care she needed got to be too much for me. We knew she would run out of money around christmas but my father (who lives abroad) said dont worry ill pay after that - so we went ahead.

Now its getting close apparently his wife has vetoed this and he will now pay nothing. He can afford it he just wont (whole other thread!). Hes now saying he is going to move my grandmother to a cheaper home and that her (basic state) pension and any government contributions will have to cover it.

for reference the home shes in now costs £5000 a month. She is supposed to be having a needs assessment soon but she has no diagnosis of anything at the moment. She is confused and cannot look after herself but somehow keeps passing the dementia assessment.

when her money goes below £23,000 in about 2 months how much are we likely to get towards costs? I have this massive worry that the money from her pension and any contributions wont even cover a cheaper home and what on earth do we do then. I can contribute a small amount but no where near what it looks like she needs .

my dad has power of attorney and so its really up to him i suppose but my grandmother is terrified now . She is very confused and frail (shes 87) .

Has anyone approached the care home or the council yet?

we have asked for a needs assessment from the council which is what the care home have advised us to do . The forms were sent off last week and i think it said we should hear back in 5 days but we have not heard anything yet.

We spoke to the care home and they advised us to do the above.

Care home will have a strategy for this transition to funded care. Surprised they haven’t talked to next of kin/attorney

It sounds like the needs assessment could be a part of this process actually - so perhaps your dad has already started this.
Her options will be limited by how much the family can contribute after council contributions and her own pension/savings contributions but she won't end up homeless if you all can't top up the current care home fees. The council will fund care for her somewhere.
Perhaps your dad will pay the difference but just doesn't want to pay the full £5000 so he is getting the council involved to cover part of the cost?

When my fathers saving went below £16k adult social services moved him to a residential home and then into a nursing and residential home. As his needs changed.
Legally your father doesn't have to contribute.
My father didn't have a home to sell so was quite straightforward.

As others have said - get the LA assessment done - both needs and financial.

Your gran doesn't need a formal dementia diagnosis to receive funding for a care home - my Mum didn't and she still qualified for the lower level of nursing care funding. So that's one thing you don't have to worry about. SS will assess your gran's social & personal needs, in consultation with your gran, you and the home.

The Age UK website is a very useful source of information on financial matters surrounding long term care. It definitely worth a look. They have (or did) a service where a specialist adviser will talk you through options - you fill in an online form with details and they call you back. This was very useful for my Mum.

One additional suggestion - if your father is overseas maybe it would be better for him to rescind his position on the lasting power of attorney and pass it on to you or add you to the document. I know for my Mum my sister and I were both named and we could take decisions independently of each other. Again Age UK are a very good source of information on this.

I know it's an absolute mind field of confusion and worry - there are sources of help & support

If your GM is unhappy with DF's proposals and she still has legal capacity she can remove your dads POA. And choose not to give someone else POA
It is probably better if she gives someone in the local area POA as they can be physically present in any meeting and be face to face with care staff who can sometimes advice family informally. The care home will have accumulated level of understanding on how the local LA teams work and time tables etc so it can be helpful to use their advice. They should be able to tell you how long the LA take to do an assessment.

Also have they tracked GM's mental and physical capacity? Are they able to provide an assessment of what her needs are at the moment. Because getting the carehome talking to other professionals can be helpful as they see the day to day interactions and where support is needed. GM is likely pass a memory test for a long while still have diminished capacity. It is common that she can be a superstar in the assessment tests but poorly at other times.

I would place a call to the assessment team to check where they are on the assessment if you have not heard anything back a day or two after the assessment should be finalised. However you as a family need to pick someone who is the main point of contact because the quick way to erode good relationships is to have multiple family members contacting the same person about the same issues or expecting them to resolve infamily fights over GM's careplan. If GM is OK with your DF being the point of contact you should make sure that he is willing to communicate with the carehome and LA and be actively involved in getting a resolution which your GM agrees to.

It sounds like your dad has already started the conversations with the council about what will happen.

The first step is the Care Act Assessment - that will confirm if she has eligible care act needs (she will)

This assessment will also determine what level of care they feel she needs

The local authority website should have details of what the maximum they will contribute towards the cost of all levels lf care.

They will take all of her pension/income into account. So e.g. if the council agree that she meets their threshold for residential care and they will pay £900 a week for that care, if she has an income of £330 a week then that £900 will be paid by the council to the care home but they will reclaim £300 a week from your grandma and leave her with approx £30 a week for herself for 'pocket money'.

If the care home charges more than £900 a week then the council will either if a 3rd party wants to make a 'top up' to pay the difference. If no one will then they will either negotiate with the care home to accept just £900 out of kindness, or arrange for her to move to a care home that will accept the £900 a week rate.

If your grandmother ever owned a house prior to moving into care they will also want to know where the proceeds of that went to.

You had lots of good advice on here already. Does your gran have a home to sell?
Your dad has no obligation whatsoever to fund his mums care. Neither do you.
This is a completely normal situation that social care and care home's experience all the time so try not to stress too much.

First off are you in the UK ?

If so make an appointment with your local council social services for a financial assessment ASAP , it took around 3 months for my mum's to be done .
My local council were very easy to deal with just the time scale that was a pain .

It sounds like the LPOA (OPs dad) has already started the ball rolling on this if they are waiting on a care assessment.

if there are only income and savings to consider and no assets, or no assets that have been disposed of in the last few years it should be relatively straightforward and the financial assessment will be backdated to the date the LPOA made contact with them to request the assessment/advise of the financial threshold being reached.

If you’re in England, the local authority have an obligation meet someone’s care needs if they don’t have funds for it themselves so try not to worry. That care needs assessment is crucial.
does the care home have other people there the local authority fund in full? If so then hopefully it should be fairly straightforward if they agree she needs 24 hour care.

the LA are not obliged to keep someone in the same care home when they take over funding but in practice if you kick up enough of a stink they normally do unless it’s a ridiculously expensive one compared to others.

There are 2 levels of savings though .
£23.250 is the upper limit at the moment , the lower is £14.250

Yes, but we know from the OP that the upper limit won't be reached for another two months.

If a delay to the financial assessment occurs and an overpayment is made by the family then it will be repaid to them by the local authority. The local authority I work for at the moment has no delays unless there is prevarication from the family, one I have worked for previously had significant delays and repayments were very common.

it's still very straightforward, it's automatically calculated by software once any Disability Related Expenses (DREs) are agreed and the income/savings etc are input, it generates the client contribution amount at the other end.

Even when savings have been reduced to the lower limit, if the income is high enough from e.g pensions then will still be a client contribution to pay.

hardly anyone pays absolutely nothing towards their residential care - those that have very low contributions are usually people who have spouses still living in the marital home who are still dependent on the income of the person now in care to pay the bills for the marital property.

thanks for all your replies!y grandmother has no assests she DID have a house she sold is 20 years ago but she used it to pay the rent on a sheltered flat for that time. At the start of this year we had to move her in with us as she was unable to manage in the sheltered flat and then into the home.

i will try to post more later im actually at a railway museum at the moment 😂

@hatgirl Is the £900 standard across all LAs? Will they pay a higher rate for a nursing home? (I don’t think the funded nursing allowance is enough to cover the difference between a care home and a nursing home)

Oh I was just using it as a simplified example.

It's nowhere near that amount locally to me but I know in other parts of the country that would be a rough ballpark.

Every local authority has different rates but they all should have them published somewhere on their website.

It seems ridiculous that the amount paid by the LA varies from LA to LA. Why is isn't it a standard amount?

Because it costs more to run care homes in some parts of the country than others

Because some local authorities have more money than others

Because the populations in different parts of the country are more affluent/ more likely to be house owners and therefore self funders who subsidise the state care system

Because the market availabilty in some local authorities is better than others

Because the political leanings of the elected Council members influence how much the council is prepared to subsidise the care.

There's loads of reasons basically why there isn't a one size fits all. Just like council tax

My DH is deputy for finances for an old family friend who is in a care home. Has lived there for several years and house was sold to pay for it. Home have told us to let them know when the money is running out (i.e. within a year) and they will then liase with local council to take over when necessary. There is no family left to pay any top up fees so council will have to pay in full. We fully expect him to stay in same home as any other local home would be similar cost. I think the difference in what councils pay is probably due to varying costs in different parts of the country, for instance London is probably expensive compared to some other places. Family members are not obliged to pay anything, only the person's own finances are taken into account.

Family members are not obliged to pay anything, only the person's own finances are taken into account. However if family want elder to stay in a home more expensive than the LA will pay for, family will have to pay a “top up” fee to cover the gap. (Has to come from family because elder has been reduced to legal minimum therefore deemed unable to pay). But if family can’t/don’t want to pay top ups, elder will be found a home that the LA is prepared to pay for. They won’t be turfed out back into care of family.

Mother lives alone,with care support in the morning and evening. I am.the only one of 5 siblings who lives locally..or even in the country so the day to day stuff falls to me. Sis in London has PoA and visits when she can and does all the paperwork stuff.
She is adamant mum can manage at home with support.
Other sis lives abroad and flies in occasionally. She is here just now and horrified at mums decline. Sis in London says mum stays at home. Other sis says care home. Both are messaging me furiously. House will have to be sold to fund any care. I feel utterly conflicted.

@Hedjwitch Point your sis from abroad (DS2) here and she can be talked through getting DM assessed as a safeguarding concern.

The POA is only in effect if DM has no capacity and IMO if this is the case DM is likely not safe to live alone. So not in effect DM will be the person making the choices. And you need to be honest with DS2 on what you are doing at the moment and if you would be able to cope with additional tasks.

DS2 can check to see if DM would be better able to cope if the daily visits were increased and even if they could cover some of the day to day tasks you do at the moment.

There is no need to rush into any decision but there is no harm done if DS2 is willing to get the ball rolling on the carehome option too.
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Mental capacity assessment to assess her understanding
Care act assessment to look at care needs
If health needs NHS continuing healthcare May part part of this