Deputyship

[IthinkIsawahairbrushbackthere]

Background

Apologies to those I know on the Cockroach thread who will have heard all this before but a quick summary:

My parents lived in the granny annex (a mobile home) in our garden. When dad died I became mum's carer. Our finances were always "intertwined" - we paid the mortgage, mum paid the utilities.

Twelve months ago mum went into hospital and after a great deal of agonising ended up in a care home. She had the beginnings of dementia but over the past year she has gone down hill very rapidly, sometimes she doesn't recognise me, thinks my kids are hers etc. This happened so quickly that we didn't have time to get a POA and even if we had I don't know that she would have consented. She has no awareness of her condition and even on her best days had no awareness of the amount of help she needed to get by day by day.

Her care home place is funded by the council and she keeps £ 35 a week for necessities - more than enough for her needs. I have always bought her clothes/toiletries/more or less everything she needs while she would spoil my kids and treat us to a takeaway every week.

The problem

I have access to her bank account online in that I can check her balance and transfer money but I can't close direct debits and I have no authority to cancel contracts with Sky or BT or any other supplier that she pays for - she has her own phone line/Sky subscription and the energy account for our house is in her name. We have asked the energy supplier to transfer the account into our names so we can pay the bill from our account but they won't do it without her authority. I could transfer the money for the energy into her account each month but I don't feel happy with doing that without any access to check the account or deal with any problems that might arise.

I have been told that I need to apply for deputyship but I don't have the funds (about £ 1 500) to do that. She is not eligible for help with fees because her income is too high - by £ 1K! - and all her income bar her weekly allowance goes towards her fees. My husband and I live very simply. We don't have a car, we don't have central heating, we don't have savings. We have a very small mortgage but my husband is on a very low wage and we can't borrow the money to pay for the Deputyship. CAB sent me a list to a couple of charities that might help but again mum's income is just a little bit too high to qualify for help.

Is there anything that can be done? Would Social Services be able to take over her accounts and deal with it? Where do I go from here?

@IthinkIsawahairbrushbackthere
I've read your posts recently elsewhere and I am glad your DM is mostly settled and that you are getting space at last to dictate your own day.

I don't really have an answer to your specific point but there are a couple of avenues I'd explore aside from the Social Services angle.

We got legal aid in Scotland to apply for 'guardianship'. I've just checked our application (seven years ago) and it said that DM qualified for civil legal aid but did not qualify for legal advice and assistance due to her savings being beyond a threshold. Scots Law can be different but it might be worth exploring this distinction. My DM was sectioned at the time which may also have had a bearing. However, maybe you could get the 'first part' and not the advice. (Our eventual bill for the legal advice was £532)

Is it actually her gross income or net income they consider? Is there anyway you can reduce your DM's income by £1k? Could you take out a funeral plan for her that would bring the income back to the allowable amount?

I'd be hopeful that Social Services have come across this before and can point you in the right direction. It is a lengthy process. The legal aid application took about seven weeks from start to being granted. Then the legal and court application took another six months, all pre Covid.

Thanks @Mum5net you are always so supportive and positive. Her bank account will be empty by the end of next month or the month after. She doesn't have an overdraft to leave money to pay the bills once the council take the care home fees (not that they shouldn't be taking them - I think it is great that she has £120 "pocket money" each month - she is paying less than half of what the care home costs anyway).

In a previous existence (before having children) I was a legal secretary and my boss hated anything to do with the Court of Protection as it would always be a long drawn out affair. That was over 30 years ago and it doesn't sound like the process is any easier now.

The frustrating thing is that mum keeps saying "There's money in my account - take it all to buy a car!" (which of course I won't!) but if I were to ask her to sign a piece of paper giving me authority to handle her affairs (if only it were that simple) she would say no because she thinks she is coming home next week/before Christmas/in time for the Jubilee.

Maybe one of the social work posters will be along soon to offer some comfort and direction. I think you are a whisker away from the amount so there must be something that can be waived.

I fully get the ‘decline to sign’ stand-off.

The below route is much cheaper and easier but very emotionally charged 🤣.
When was the last time you actually asked her to sign something? Can you summons the energy to type up a few letters to these utility companies for her to sign mingled in with say five assorted birthday cards?.
Would one of your DC sit and coax their gran to sign the letter to the gas and Sky people? She might do it for someone else if you are not involved? Just a thought. Would save you months of graft man’s worry.
Today I’m trying to do my DM’s annual accounts and also an income statement for her Council. I so resent doing the accounts. I put it off t the deadline. She has literally no cash to fiddle but they still want it all listed and submitted and us to pay for them to review her accounts

Have you googled "(name of your council) appointeeship" because where I live that gets you the details on how and when the council will apply to be the deputy for property and finance. It's a county service if you are in a two tier authority. They charge about £6 a week. The first thing they do here is look for family who could do it, and more importantly, be supported to do it. It may be that there is someone at the council who would be able to help you. You can tell them that you are unable/unwilling to act if that's what you want to do - do you want to be the deputy or would you rather someone else do it?

Is the main barrier to deputyship the application cost?
I don't think you pay that, it should be your mum. I can't remember if it's a get it back after situation though.
You'll probably need a solicitor, but again she should cover those costs. Certainly after its approved she pays all the legal fees.
I don't know what happens if she runs out of money though.

You may have to pay her back for the bills since she moved as that was basically in lieu of rent, or she might be able to carry on until the money runs out (she can continue to financially support family as she has in the past), so check with a solicitor.

Honestly, call up the utilities and pretend to be your mum, technically not that legal but so much quicker and easier.
Or would she let you speak on her behalf 'just once'. So you call when you visit "I know you're coming home soon but need to get xyz sorted first, can I explain the problem to them", pass the phone over so she says you can speak about the account, then close the account (maybe out of earshot).
Or sign up to an online account, I presume you have bill/account details, and cancel that way. Might be easier with some companies than others.

A utility company can't change the name on the account, you must close and reopen. You're not trying to pay for her, you're not taking over, you have nothing to do with the situation other than talking on behalf of your mother (for the sake of the phone call). Pretend she lived separately, and you'd sold her house and now someone else is there, that's the sort of thought process you need to use with them.

I would rather just hand over everything and let someone else sort it. My uncle used to do all her finances until the pandemic and I find hugely stressful. I just feel so anxious about it all. I don't think she could talk on the phone. She zones out and doesn't acknowledge us so if I had them on the phone and tried to pass the phone to her she might not even speak. The annoying thing is that she has not spoken to any "authority" for years. I have had to phone, pass the phone to her when she confirms that she wants me to speak then she would pass the phone back to me. I am afraid to pretend to be her because she is so vacant and confused.

Is it worth calling Age UK or Independent Age for advice perhaps? I'm not sure if they can help, but might be worth a try.

I've been a bit of an ostrich and have been hiding my head in the sand but I can't put it off any longer. I will try Age Concern.

@IthinkIsawahairbrushbackthere if it helps I haven't done anything further on my DM's accounts and I'm likely to get a threatening letter by recorded delivery as I am well past the already extended deadline.

Hi your local council social services will have an ACS Personal Finance team who apply for appointeeship (handling DWP benefits) and, where appropriate, deputyship for ppl who don't have someone able and willing to apply. In your situation the potential issue is that the LA doesn't have any need to obtain a deputy order as the pickle relates to your intertwined household finances. If the LA can't or won't apply you can apply. As a legal sec you would be able, I'm sure, to complete the forms (Google COP1, COP1A, COP3, COP4.) A social worker or Dr would need to certify DM lacks capacity by completing the COP3. Fee remission (reduction) is available where the person lacking capacity has limited means and the fee if payable is paid from the person who lacks capacity's funds - you can ask to delay payment until you can get access to funds. The bad news is that these applications routinely take >6 months due to huge court backlog.