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Elderly parents
Original poster

Parent ignoring care home fees and POA

34 replies

MargotTrubshawe · 22/05/2022 20:04

I wonder if anyone has any information about what will happen in a situation where an elderly parent has gone into a care home but they are ignoring anything to do with the finances?
The situation is that mum owns a house and therefore would be classed as self-funding but she won’t give me Power of Attorney to sort out the sale of the house to fund the care. She is of sound mind.
She has been in the care home for 4 months now so the 12 week disregard has well passed and she has had two letters from the local authority which as far as I can tell ( I live 100s of miles away) are asking her about paying fees.

There is a horrible situation too where my brother and his wife have used all her money in her bank accounts when she first became ill and actually got her in debt. They had access to her house whilst she was in hospital but did not have permission to use her cards. The carehome were informed and now know there is a safeguarding issue with my brother the police have been informed but she won’t speak to them. So savings that could have been used to pay care homes for 1 or 2 years have gone. Me and my Husband did what we could to deal with banks and sort out a payment plan for the debts but now my mother will not give me POA to sort anything else out which makes things impossible ( from my point of view) with care home fees. She seems to think that me having financial POA would not be fair to my brother, even though my brother went behind her and my back and drained all her savings from her accounts! I have tried to explain that POA would an admin task for dealing with finances and would be under legal scrutiny and all to benefit her but she doesn’t want to do it.

So, what is the Local authority likely to do when she just ignores letters about fees? What sort of action can they take? Will they take action against her in any way? I am expecting in a few months that she will contact me in a panic about some nasty letter or legal stuff which I can’t help her with as I won’t have POA.

OP posts:
ItsSnowJokes · 22/05/2022 20:07

As harsh as it sounds if she is of sound mind you can't do anything about it. Leave her to it! Yes she may call you in a panic but then you calmly tell her that you tried to help but she refused your help.

TheLightSideOfTheMoon · 22/05/2022 20:09

The local authority will assign someone to help her.

Although the home might have to give her notice to leave for that to happen.

Can’t the brother pay? Care home feed for 1-2 years is £££…

Original poster
MargotTrubshawe · 22/05/2022 20:12

He wouldn't pay anything, he defrauded her and spent it all! He has revealed himself to be selfish and abusive. I just would like to know for my own peace of mind would she be made to leave the care home, would the authorities do anything to pursue the money and if so what?

OP posts:
Original poster
MargotTrubshawe · 22/05/2022 20:15

Yes I know really, she has made her own choice. It's still hard when it leaves me thinking she might be turfed out of care!

OP posts:
BlanketsBanned · 22/05/2022 20:18

Has she got any money left or is it all tied up in the house. Is the money your brother stole going to be recovered. Do you know whey she wont discuss finances, the carehome wont just let her stay there indefinitely if she doesnt pay, she may be given notice to leave and she may either have to go or put the house up for sale or arrange a deferred payment scheme. Can AgeUK or xiti3zens advice help, does she have a solicitor. Did she sign a payment contract when she moved into the carehome.

SafeguardingSocialWorker · 22/05/2022 20:19

If she has capacity then the local authority can take her to court. They will only do this as a last resort.

They are more likely to offer her a deferred payment in the first instance which means they put a charge against the house and they get paid when the house gets sold before all other creditors/debts.

Unless she agrees to speak to the police she will be assessed as if she still has the money in her bank accounts. If she makes a complaint to the police then it will probably be written off by the local authority.

Even if she does make a statement to the police the CPS are unlikely to take the case forward against your brother. Sadly.

This is not a problem of your making nor should you do anything more to fix it than your mum wants you to do.

stanfi · 22/05/2022 20:20

Has your brother already got her sign anything? Is she refusing to give you access because his fraud is bigger than you've already discovered?

MiniatureHotdog · 22/05/2022 20:21

The house will have to be sold. They'll likely put a charge on it so it can't be sold without them being repaid, but if it's currently empty I think they can also force a sale?

MiniatureHotdog · 22/05/2022 20:22

And yes, surely if she doesn't go to the police then the money she did have will be regarded as deprivation of assets? (ie as if she gave your brother permission to take it)

Whatevergetsyouthroughthenight · 22/05/2022 20:24

If your Mum’s genuine objection is excluding your brother, you can have joint POA where both of you have to sign all documents, so you can prevent your brother doing anything dodgy and satisfy your Mum.
Having said that, it sounds like she’s in denial (my Mum was the same). I can’t see a situation where the local authority will turn your Mum out, I expect that they will put a charge on the house and take the money (with interest) after your Mum has gone. If it puts your mind at rest, try speaking to the local authority about what their policy is in this situation, it can’t be the first time. Any data protection could be got around by asking them about policies not about your Mum in particular.
Most local authorities have a scheme where you can take out a loan with them against the value of the house repayable on death. The interest rate is limited by law I believe. This would (if your Mum was willing) give you the ability to rent out the house and get some income to help repay debt/pay for the care home fees.
Good luck, I know how stressful is.

Original poster
MargotTrubshawe · 22/05/2022 20:24

@SafeguardingSocialWorker
Thanks for that, it seems like good info.

OP posts:
rwalker · 22/05/2022 20:26

You don't need to do anything local authority will deal . It might be too late to get PA as they have to be of sound mind and the solicitor may judge she's not.
local authority will put a charge against the house and when they die recover money.

As for your brother TBH i'm with him your parents as penalised for being responsible . If they had pissed all there money away the local authority pay if you are careful and responsible support yourself you get fuck all.
Having money is no benefit to your parens the local auth will make they pay till the point of bankruptcy then step in if you have no money they pay .

Original poster
MargotTrubshawe · 22/05/2022 20:30

Whatevergetsyouthroughthenight · 22/05/2022 20:24

If your Mum’s genuine objection is excluding your brother, you can have joint POA where both of you have to sign all documents, so you can prevent your brother doing anything dodgy and satisfy your Mum.
Having said that, it sounds like she’s in denial (my Mum was the same). I can’t see a situation where the local authority will turn your Mum out, I expect that they will put a charge on the house and take the money (with interest) after your Mum has gone. If it puts your mind at rest, try speaking to the local authority about what their policy is in this situation, it can’t be the first time. Any data protection could be got around by asking them about policies not about your Mum in particular.
Most local authorities have a scheme where you can take out a loan with them against the value of the house repayable on death. The interest rate is limited by law I believe. This would (if your Mum was willing) give you the ability to rent out the house and get some income to help repay debt/pay for the care home fees.
Good luck, I know how stressful is.

Thankyou. I would not want to involve my brother as am shocked at his dishonesty and lack of morals to be honest. He has also virtually disappeared
( no phone contact, no reply to emails etc not a single visit to mum) since the debt on the accounts came to light, so he would be utterly useless at helping my mum and a hindrance I'm sure to any legal decisions. If he had at least owned up and said he had done something wrong that would be a start but he has cut contact even with his mum, which is terribly sad and cowardly.

OP posts:
A580Hojas · 22/05/2022 20:30

Your brother stealing money from your mother is a police matter! seriously. He didn't have POA at the time and should be prosecuted.

Original poster
MargotTrubshawe · 22/05/2022 20:32

A580Hojas · 22/05/2022 20:30

Your brother stealing money from your mother is a police matter! seriously. He didn't have POA at the time and should be prosecuted.

Yes, just what I think myself but police have said they can do nothing because my mum won't speak to them.

OP posts:
A580Hojas · 22/05/2022 20:32

POA is actually quite complicated to set up and (I don't want to put you off) not a walk in the park. This is to protect the vulnerable from thieving bastards like your brother. Sorry but he needs to be pursued.

A580Hojas · 22/05/2022 20:33

Does she understand that he has stolen from her?

Original poster
MargotTrubshawe · 22/05/2022 20:35

rwalker · 22/05/2022 20:26

You don't need to do anything local authority will deal . It might be too late to get PA as they have to be of sound mind and the solicitor may judge she's not.
local authority will put a charge against the house and when they die recover money.

As for your brother TBH i'm with him your parents as penalised for being responsible . If they had pissed all there money away the local authority pay if you are careful and responsible support yourself you get fuck all.
Having money is no benefit to your parens the local auth will make they pay till the point of bankruptcy then step in if you have no money they pay .

You might sympathise about the authorities now not getting the money but my brother's actions had a huge effect psychologically on my mum. That is not something that should be swept under the carpet IMO, it's abuse. My mum had also wanted to leave money to me and her grandchildren but that is not going to happen now, thanks to my lovely brother!

OP posts:
Thesefeetaremadeforwalking · 22/05/2022 20:36

I agree with what others have said, in that if your mother is deemed to be competent there isn't anything you can do.

Sorry OP x

SafeguardingSocialWorker · 22/05/2022 20:40

stanfi · 22/05/2022 20:20

Has your brother already got her sign anything? Is she refusing to give you access because his fraud is bigger than you've already discovered?

sadly from experience this was my first thought also.

Original poster
MargotTrubshawe · 22/05/2022 20:40

A580Hojas · 22/05/2022 20:33

Does she understand that he has stolen from her?

Yes but he appears to be the golden child and she thinks he should be treated with kid gloves for some reason. There is a strange preoccupation with the shame of it all and people 'not finding out' from my mum. I told her exactly how much he and his horrible wife took but she is protective of them. I think it has elements of coercive control myself but police have said they can do very little, even though there is evidence of electricity bills etc paid for at their address and holidays when she is bedbound, services to their address. So that's an 85 year old disabled lady, unable to walk and get out of bed stolen from and nothing happens..I would love the police to do something but how could I get them to when she won't make a statement?

OP posts:
Original poster
MargotTrubshawe · 22/05/2022 20:43

stanfi · 22/05/2022 20:20

Has your brother already got her sign anything? Is she refusing to give you access because his fraud is bigger than you've already discovered?

This thought had occurred to me, that he might have got the house signed over or even taken out more loans and credit in her name. Unfortunately we can't get access to her credit history without certain details from her. If he has ownership of the house then I don't see what I could do apart from wait for the inevitable and for him to be found out when fees need to be recouped.

OP posts:
Original poster
MargotTrubshawe · 22/05/2022 20:46

MiniatureHotdog · 22/05/2022 20:22

And yes, surely if she doesn't go to the police then the money she did have will be regarded as deprivation of assets? (ie as if she gave your brother permission to take it)

Yes that is another fear I have. It's complicated as on some occasions I think she agreed to give him money but there are definitely occasions where my brother and his wife bought luxury items / holidays without her permission whilst she was in hospital. I have messages from mum where she was shocked and dismayed at these things.

OP posts:
autienotnaughty · 22/05/2022 20:48

The care home will have a policy for this. A lot of vulnerable people don't have a power of attorney in place. I think (but not 100% sure) that care home had a stake in my grandmother's house so when she died her children sold it and the care home got paid first. But she was end of life so that might have made a difference.

TokyoTen · 22/05/2022 20:52

Gosh OP that is shocking. Ha e you consulted a solicitor just to ensure you ha e had legal advice? However if your mum won't do anything I think ultimately the police can do nothing.