Why do we (as a society) do this?

[Zoopet]

So I've just visited my Mum.(stage 4 Parkinsons)
She's in a very good care home and the staff are great.
She had another collapse during the week and was taken to hospital but tests revealed nothing and she was discharged back to the Care Home.
When I visited this morning she asked for the toilet and after the hoist was used and she had to be completely washed and reclothed due to horrendous diarrhoea I was asking myself why do we do this?
It's a miserable existence for her and due to her Parkinsons she has zero quality of life.
She's still convinced that her partner has gone off with someone else( he died from covid last year)
and we have the same conversations every visit.

No dignity just a terrible physical and mental decline.
I just feel utterly depressed.
I hate visiting but will continue to do so but God it is truly awful.
Just wanted to vent.

I've been nursing over thirty years and completely agree. Cure this, cure that. Pushing statins and BP medications down people's throats whilst they lie semi comatose for months and years on end. The last memory of my previously vibrant and outgoing GM as I 'chatted' to my very elderly GM in her carehome is of her wetting herself and having no realisation whatsoever.
Modern medicine is a victim of its own success.

Thanks for that information @Purplewithred, not a nice thing to do, but sensible and necessary

I remember my friend telling me about her mother dying of bone cancer in agony it was either Xmas eve or day her sister hid in a cupboard and the Macmillan nurse had gone home by then - a horrible horrific death that has scarred her . We should do these things better. Sorry to hear if your situation it’s something I dread .

My grans been saying "I hope I'm not here this time next year" for years. She wants to be gone. She's in pain, her quality of life is poor and she just doesn't want to be here. She'd never got to Switzerland, she wants to die in England where she's always lived but she'd like to go now.

My mum was discharged from hospital just before Christmas. She's bed bound, with dementia, asleep for the majority of the day, managed little sips of water and cereal. Ulcerated leg. I'm praying she has a stroke or heart attack in the night before her swallow reflex goes. If I could put up a syringe driver now I would and end it for her.

I’m so sorry
It’s horrendous and heartbreaking and all you can do is be there.

I don’t understand why in this day and age we can’t whilst young and sound of mind put something into place whereby if certain things happen/ certain diseases or loss of function take place we can’t arrange to pass quietly and with dignity.

The problem with places like Dignitas is the person had to be sound of mind, often pass earlier then they would care for, worry relatives may be prosecuted and have to be capable of lifting and consuming the means, it’s also costly. It’s something I will consider using myself in the future though.
We had these discussions as a family and my aunt always maintained she wanted to “see it out” if she became sick. She was diagnosed with dementia age 83 and passed away age 85. Thankfully could eat and drink and thought she was living in a hotel, she was happy.
It’s a difficult call.

I was a home carer for years and witnessed so much misery. Tiny frail elderly folk taken into hospital, medicated up then sent home for a few more weeks/months of misery. Nobody seems to be allowed to pass away peacefully nowadays.
My mum has advanced dementia and also aortic stenosis. She was offered surgery but declined (when she had mental capacity) she also has a DNAR in place. No intervention ,just be made comfortable and allowed to slip away.
In my role as a carer I witnessed paramedics trying to resuscitate a lady in her mid 80s with severe heart failure. It was horribly undignified and she died anyway.
I realise that paramedics are required to try and resuscitate people and are not God, but it's awful having to witness this

Working in care was a horrendous eye opener for me. Why we value quantity over quality of life, I'll never understand.

My Nan delveoped pneumonia, after 2 long hard years of mourning my uncle (her youngest son) and being diagnosed with heart failure. I went in the ambulance with her, and after chatting to the Dr on duty, agreed it was kinder to let her go than treat aggressively. She was 87, weighed around 6 stone and was horribly frail/almost bed bound. Instead, my Uncle and Aunt stormed in and demanded that she was treated, and that I had no right to make that decision - even though I was her carer. She had 2 weeks of utter misery on a geriatric ward in hospital before passing away, begging for my grandad who'd died 20 years before. I'll never forgive them for putting her through that.

Agreed.

I don't understand the point of wanting to keep people alive at all cost when we no longer have any quality of life, independence or awareness of what we are doing and who we are because of old age or terminal/degenerative illnesses.

Somehow we spare loved pets the pain of having to go through this by putting them to sleep yet we don't give humans the same rights.

To suggest that the majority need to suffer because the minority could abuse this is not sustainable either.

I can't believe we need to die in secret whatever age and whatever health. If someone doesn't want to live they should be allowed to cease that life in a way that doesn't involve taking themselves off to a wood to hang themselves for a random passerby to find them or to take an uncertain overdose etc. A 98 year old man hung himself recently because his heart was too strong to let him die. What caring society thinks that is right?

Our societies view on euthanasia ( and medical care) infuriates me.

I'm 71 and have pretty dodgy health with a number of chronic illnesses. I've made it clear to my GP that I'll do a lot of things to help my health, but I won't stop eating and drinking things I enjoy.

My DD also knows my views on quality over quantity and is fully supportive.

Everyone dies. And I like the saying that you can give up sex, drugs and rock and roll. You won't live any longer, but it'll feel like it. Imagine how fucking boring giving up every thing you enjoy would be.

My take on life is that I've had a blast (by and large) and have done for over seventy years. I hope when I go, it will be with a g&t in my hand. If that means going abroad, because this country appears to be too immature to accept the simple fact that some people feel their lives are no longer enjoyable, so be it.

I'm really sorry about your mum Zoopet . It sounds so awful for your mum and for you

Whilst I personally would HATE to be dependent on others and agree that we should be aiming for quality of life rather than longevity; I don't think we can assume that:

(A) everyone feels exactly the same way about this issue. A family member of mine for example was bed-ridden at the end of his life and had lost a lot of independence and had to be fed by someone else; but he still desperately wanted to live and enjoyed the life he had (limited though it was). I would hate to think that anyone like him might feel under pressure to die before they were ready.

(B) what you assume you would, or would not, tolerate now (viewing life from the perspective of a younger, healthy and able-bodied person) won't change should your health deteriorate. An oncologist we know says that you would be surprised what people are prepared to tolerate in order to live.

So I think the emphasis should first be placed on developing better health care and pain control and dignity for the elderly and chronically and terminally ill before we talk about euthanasia being widely available.

And I don't think we can ignore the financial element of all of this when the NHS is already under pressure to opt in some areas for the cheapest treatment option available. I shudder to think how vulnerable, frail and elderly patients with no family to advocate for them, might fair in an NHS that offers euthanasia tbh.

@BoodleBug51

Working in care was a horrendous eye opener for me. Why we value quantity over quality of life, I'll never understand.

My Nan delveoped pneumonia, after 2 long hard years of mourning my uncle (her youngest son) and being diagnosed with heart failure. I went in the ambulance with her, and after chatting to the Dr on duty, agreed it was kinder to let her go than treat aggressively. She was 87, weighed around 6 stone and was horribly frail/almost bed bound. Instead, my Uncle and Aunt stormed in and demanded that she was treated, and that I had no right to make that decision - even though I was her carer. She had 2 weeks of utter misery on a geriatric ward in hospital before passing away, begging for my grandad who'd died 20 years before. I'll never forgive them for putting her through that.

That's part of the problem.

For every relative who wants a peaceful end for their loved one, theres others who want everything done, and would make life hell for anyone who they felt didnt.

@Runninghorse

Thanks for sharing that. I will be joining.

@Slingingcontest

Unless everyone wants it, then no one should have it available?

If someone is of sound mind, then they should be permitted to decide their own end, rather than go on in suffering and indignity.

Read the accounts here of what the end looks like for many people.

In my role as a carer I witnessed paramedics trying to resuscitate a lady in her mid 80s with severe heart failure. It was horribly undignified and she died anyway.
I realise that paramedics are required to try and resuscitate people and are not God

I would say that trying to resuscitate someone in those circumstances is the "playing god" behaviour. Same for dragging out the dying process.

[quote dontsaythj]@Slingingcontest

Unless everyone wants it, then no one should have it available?

If someone is of sound mind, then they should be permitted to decide their own end, rather than go on in suffering and indignity.

Read the accounts here of what the end looks like for many people.[/quote]
I don't want to start a series of tit for tat posts as this is a very sensitive subject, and the op's circumstances are v upsetting and difficult. Respectfully, I think you may have mis-understood what I have written.

I didn't dismiss the option of euthanasia altogether, I said that the emphasis should first be on providing better treatment and care for those already suffering.

And fwiw, I have read the accounts dontsaythj very carefully indeed and have personal experience of one of my closest friends dying from cancer last year and of my own father and fil dying in very painful and difficult circumstances.

An oncologist we know says that you would be surprised what people are prepared to tolerate in order to live.

Which fails to account for how much of that behaviour is driven by the desperation of being denied a chosen death and trying to make a horrific situation "tolerable".

When humans have no way out of a horrific situation they shut down and try to find ways to endure. That does not mean they should be forced to suffer or denied a choice to exit the suffering.

Besides which, it's completely irrelevant that some people would not want the option. Nobody is proposing compulsory euthanasia for all with a terminal illness.

Just because some people would not want the option, does not mean it should be denied to those who do. I think that's an incredibly selfish and inhumane argument to make to block access to a humane death for those who want it.

@user1641832968632486258

In my role as a carer I witnessed paramedics trying to resuscitate a lady in her mid 80s with severe heart failure. It was horribly undignified and she died anyway. I realise that paramedics are required to try and resuscitate people and are not God

I would say that trying to resuscitate someone in those circumstances is the "playing god" behaviour. Same for dragging out the dying process.

But it's legally necessary unless some has upon their person and viewed by the paramedics a DNR.

People are up in arms on the covid threads about elderly people all being asked if want DNR but the alternative is really brutal treatment with no dignity at all.

I didn't dismiss the option of euthanasia altogether, I said that the emphasis should first be on providing better treatment and care for those already suffering.

1. At what point would it be sufficiently "better" for you to countenance assisted dying laws? That sounds like the same ideological stance as the hospice movement use to block euthanasia, and there is no clear end point.

1. What about all the people forced to die inhumane deaths in the meantime while we wait for your moving target to be achieved?

High quality, humane care and support should absolutely be available to all as standard and without a fight or powerful connections being required. But assisted dying should be made available alongside for those who want it.

I would just beg everyone on here to put it in writing and get advice on what to do with the document- mine is on my GP record. Telling a relative is certainly better than nothing but putting a dated, witnessed document of some kind into the records is a lot better.

With respect user1641832968632486258 I said that we need to be careful not to assume that everyone feels the same way; not that no one should have it because some don't want it. There is a world of difference between the two. And I think I explained in my last paragraph that elderly vulnerable patients without families could potentially be subject to those assumptions in a cost-cutting NHS.

I wish I hadn't posted now tbh. I am not posting in total opposition to euthanasia either! I just think we have to be very careful that it doesn't become an easy replacement for good care.

My view is genuine and I am sorry if I have caused offence by expressing it.

There must be an element of liability creeping into the Uk my dad had a medical power of attorney in progress which was in my name. My dad was admitted to hospital while I was in holiday a few hours away . I was called repeatedly by the doctors as he was refusing treatment and wanting me to talk to him etc and wondering how quickly I was going to get there to sort it out. he had wanted to die for years very little quality of life numerous ailments and of sound mind.

Yes getting a DNAR sorted is important. Mum has had one for the past two years or so. Each time she has an ambulance attend I get it out and it goes with her to hospital. She also now had a PEACE plan document which means no more hospital for her

Quality of life is subjective but in general I would say what doctors think is an acceptable quality of life isn't good enough for me. My Advanced Directive/living will is pretty brutal.

However, I encounter patients of huge frailty and great age every day who say they want everything done. At that stage there actually may not be much that can be done but they nonetheless continue to exist and although I find it really difficult to keep trying to intervene, it isn't for me to take that decision away from them.

My mother has zero quality of life and I know her previous self would 100 x rather be dead. But to others and particularly to those in healthcare, she is walking around, chatting and building relationships, eating and drinking, enjoying phone calls and visits. I know they don't understand what I mean when I try to say what our views are. Because ultimately it is her doctor's call. She never did a health POA so we have no right to speak for her, and she has no capacity to speak for herself.