In laws in trouble WWYD?

[Hairydogmummy]

I'll try to explain this as briefly as possible! My PIL live in the ROI. They were forced to sell their home 3 years ago to avoid repossession and were left with what we thought was enough to buy a little bungalow. Turned out it wasn't and they moved in with my SIL. They put what little money they had left into things for her home. Her home was also at risk though and she has now made a deal with the bank to be able to stay there and pay what she can but if it's ever sold, it will all belong to the bank. I don't know any more than that. She hasn't worked properly for years due to various health issues and my PIL are saying their pensions to run the house. Our niece, is 20 and is treating my FIL like dirt, insults etc. He's already had a stroke about 4 years ago. All of them in the house are on antidepressants and MIL and niece have therapy as well. I have no idea what to do. They are staying with us at the moment for a week. The only money we have is in our home. They are saying they can't go on social housing list over there since their pensions are too big. They could possibly barely afford to rent a flat or something privately but then what would SIL so without them. DH is wringing his hands saying there's nothing we can do.

I think you're going to have to leave them to sort it out for themselves.

@MagicWorkout they don't know what to do. Well, FIL wants out. Not sure what MIL really wants tbh. FIL is a difficult man, I do have sympathy with all of them. They're all hot headed apart from MIL. They've all made and continue to make mistakes.
@EdgeOfTheSky yes that would be ideal. We would have to sell our house and get a smaller one though. DH could be getting a pay rise soon which might make it more doable but I wouldn't put it past them to let SIL move in and then we'd never get her out.
@nurserypolitics I actually advised them to sell as they were defaulting on their mortgage and the bank was taking more and more of their equity every month and they would have had nothing left. At that point they led me to believe they would come out with enough to buy the bungalow for about 90k but then without telling us they pulled out of the bungalow purchase and agreed to move in with SIL and the money has since gone on stuff like heating, doing up the garden, two cars, a shed, appliances etc. I don't think my FIL has even been told that SIL has made the agreement with the bank. I think he still thinks she has money in the house. It was brokered through some sort of debt charity from what I gather so I think it must have been the best that could have been achieved.

I have not the first clue about Irish law but it seems unlikely to me that the agreement with the bank would leave SIL with nothing if her place is sold. Are you sure there's not a clause allowing her to move in her lifetime, so she can downsize.

[quote Hairydogmummy]@MagicWorkout they don't know what to do. Well, FIL wants out. Not sure what MIL really wants tbh. FIL is a difficult man, I do have sympathy with all of them. They're all hot headed apart from MIL. They've all made and continue to make mistakes.
@EdgeOfTheSky yes that would be ideal. We would have to sell our house and get a smaller one though. DH could be getting a pay rise soon which might make it more doable but I wouldn't put it past them to let SIL move in and then we'd never get her out.
@nurserypolitics I actually advised them to sell as they were defaulting on their mortgage and the bank was taking more and more of their equity every month and they would have had nothing left. At that point they led me to believe they would come out with enough to buy the bungalow for about 90k but then without telling us they pulled out of the bungalow purchase and agreed to move in with SIL and the money has since gone on stuff like heating, doing up the garden, two cars, a shed, appliances etc. I don't think my FIL has even been told that SIL has made the agreement with the bank. I think he still thinks she has money in the house. It was brokered through some sort of debt charity from what I gather so I think it must have been the best that could have been achieved. [/quote]
No! DO NOT sell your house. Please do not do this.

Well the most important thing is not to be dragged down with them.
Is there an Irish equivalent of entitled to so you can see for yourself?
It's sounds like pil could rent and/or get some sort of assistance. However he/they have decided to make life difficult through remaining with sil. There is nothing YOU can do. They have to.

Oh no @ditalini I won't. I meant it would be ideal if we could afford to but we won't cos it would mean us downsizing! Sometimes feel I'm the only sensible one. Before I met DH he had agreed to exW pressure to sell their home and move in with her parents. There was no money left by the time they divorced and so he had nothing when I met him! Worked out well for her tho as they subsequently signed the house over to her.

Its your husbands family and he is right there nothing you can do.

Step away and stop interfering

It's hard to stop 'interfearing' though, because when the shit inevitably hits the fan, they'll all be looking to OP and her DH to bail them out!
DON'T sell your house! These idiots will just suck every penny you have. Help can only be in the form of directing them to debt advice specialists or a financial advisor, or helping them with rental applications if necessary.

@LivingLaVidaBabyShower

Its your husbands family and he is right there nothing you can do.

Step away and stop interfering

But at least OP is trying to see what may work

It sounds very sad

I feel for her MIL

Thanks guys. I'm not interfering, anything we do will come from DH. He's just at a loss though. It is horrible to see, especially for MIL who is the loveliest person you'd ever wish to meet. She deserves a lovely relaxing retirement.

@Hairydogmummy

Thanks guys. I'm not interfering, anything we do will come from DH. He's just at a loss though. It is horrible to see, especially for MIL who is the loveliest person you'd ever wish to meet. She deserves a lovely relaxing retirement.

Sounds awful

Hope they will get on ok x

I'm sorry OP, it does sound really tough.

In terms of selling their own house, I hate to say it but actually it was probably a really bad move. It is much, much harder to evict someone from a family home in the Irish courts than in the UK - its almost impossible. For them to have been at a real risk of eviction, it would suggest they had paid nothing towards the mortgage and not engaged with the bank for about a decade. The could have negotiated a peppercorn repayment and even if they ran down the equity, would have had somewhere secure to live.

The fact they spent equity that was meant to secure their future housing needs on cars and other upgrades is pretty shocking decision making. And the fact they live with SIL but somehow don't know about the deal she's made, but you do, is a real issue.

I think at this stage, the first thing you need to do is understand if they actually want your help. They may just want a moan, but be unwilling to do anything. If they do want your help, then realistically you want full financial oversight: of their income, their capital, what they owe/own in terms of the cars, what promises SIL may have made them. That should be enough for you to get some independent advise on what they could be eligible for. There is a massive housing crisis in Ireland atm with a huge undersupply of houses to rent. Private renting is not a great option for older people long term, it really is an issue. However there are payments made to 'top up' what people can afford to pay private renting so it is worth investigating. Ultimately though pensions are much more generous than the UK. The state pension is 253.30 a week. That means if they have two full state pensions they have a joint annual income of 26k/year, not including FIL's private pension. Add in a 'decent' private pension and they really should be able to live on that income. So the question is: what support does SIL demand/need? What benefits is she on? How much is she supporting your niece?

If there's a deal that says they invested in her house so they live their rent free, that should be honoured. Otherwise you should look into what has been agreed, and they should understand her outgoings better.

You may find that actually, all these people have enough to cover their basic needs, but are prioritising wants - new cars, holidays. If SIL did a deal on the house with a debt charity, her monthly repayments should have been calculated on what is affordable for her to pay, on her own, based on her benefits. The fact she can't manage this and is demanding pension money from your parents suggests she's overspending in other areas - or her situation has changed since striking the deal and she needs to see if she can make changes. There's a lot that needs unpicking, but I think the narrative you're getting might be significantly underselling what choices people could make now to get out from the situation they're in.

They must be going some if they are burning through two Irish old age pensions and a private pension, stay well out of it.

Take a look at MABS or other financial advice charities. www.citizensinformation.ie is a good place to research.
Renting would solve this in a way but rental properly in Ireland is very very scarce and expensive now. Getting on a housing list still has a huge waiting list so not likely to solve the issue in the next five to eight years tbh.
I think your DH needs to sit down with his parents first of all and assess what they have in terms of assets and income. Then he needs to sit down with SIL and look at how she can manage better. Her parents should not be funding everything unless their income was taken in to account for her deal on the house. If they don't know about it then it shouldn't have been and could possibly be revisited.
Also SIL must have benefits coming in and she also needs to look at her daughter and boyfriend in terms of their behaviour and any contribution needed. Either he does this with or without the support of an organisation like MABS. A third party might remove some of the emotion.
He needs to make it clear that whilst he can't help out financially, he can help sort out a better approach to the current state of affairs.

mabs.ie/

This is the link to MABS. They cover all aspects of financial advice and are independent.

Don't sell your own house, there would be potentially 3 homeless families then, not 2.

Rent in Ireland is very expensive in the major cities/towns particularly in areas around universities/technological institutes, hospitals and major finance/tech/pharma employers. But, if your in-laws are on high private pensions combined with state pensions, too high to qualify for social housing as you have said, then there should be lots of more affordable rental housing outside of these areas - check out the properties on DAFT.ie for the BMW area (Border, Midlands, West) or other towns away from the major urban centres.

Previous suggestion by @StepawayfromtheBiscuittin for MABS is excellent.

Also check out charities dealing with housing for elderly people such as CHAS.ie, ALONE.ie, SHARECork.org, FocusIreland.ie, COPEGalway.ie

If you give a more specific location then perhaps someone can recommend a local charity/organisation for help

Step. Right. Back!

They are all adults, as you say some of the problems are down to personality and some mis-management.

I commend you caring so much and wanting to help but your DH is right, you cannot do anything. Listen, nod sympathetically and let them get on and sort it out themselves.

Thanks @SageRosemary @StepawayfromtheBiscuittin @nurserypolitics that's some amazing advice. Will take my time to read through it and look in to the suggestions and thank you @Queenie6655 @TonTonMacoute @FinallyFluid you are all so right! Had a bit more of a chat to them tonight and seems they are ready to say they want to leave. SIL has started new job this week so if she can hold it down, she can manage the deal with the bank. MIL knows about the deal with the bank and tonight she did mention it in front of FIL so he must know now. I didn't realise pensions were quite so generous over there. Turns out niece's boyfriend is in a worse situation than I thought so he needs their support as well! There's definitely spending going on that shouldn't be on SIL and niece's part. Found out tonight that niece is paying back loans while still a student. MIL reckons they're student loans but what kind of student loan is paid back while still a student?

In answer to your question about the student loan - absolutely no type of student loan is paid back while still a student. It would be a personal loan and between your niece and the bank. She would be responsible for it unless she asked for someone to go guarantor and then if/when she defaults on it, they become responsible for it.

My advice would be for your DH to have a chat with your PiL and say that they are teaching their daughter enabled helplessness. By her not standing on her own two feet at this point in her life she is demonstrating to their grand daughter that she too doesn't have to stand on her own two feet and be responsible for their own financial issues.

If they move out, they'll have that money back that is being syphoned off by SiL and niece and Boyfriend of niece which should be being used for your PiL in their retirement.

Who has the 2 cars that some of the house money went on?

@LookItsMeAgain yes I agree. Looks like she is going the same way as her mum. I suspect the loans were for holidays. @MichelleScarn my PIL and my SIL both got new cars. Their old ones were on last legs but still.

I'm sorry, op, I understand you're concerned, but you need to get a hold of yourself and step right back. Do not make their problems your problems, and do not move them into your home.

Thank you so much for everyone's comments on this. SIL has now asked them to move out of her home. They are going to look at a retirement village bungalow to rent on Monday. Goodness knows how SIL will manage without them financially. She's just started a new job so will depend if she is able to hold it down. Hopefully they will have enough income for the rental. All the money poured in to SIL's house is gone to them though and FIL in particular feels very used. MIL very upset. Separating from SIL is obviously best but it's not going to be easy keeping the family together after this.