What's wrong with selling a house you don't live in?

[Kendodd]

On the back of the NI increase.
If an elderly person living alone moves into a care home, well, why wouldn't they sell their house anyway? They're not going to be going back to live there, the house would be sitting empty and we don't have enough houses for people to live in. The elderly person would then also have a huge amount of money to supplement their income in their last few years. As far as I can see the benefits for everyone far outweigh any reasons for keeping the house.

For what it's worth, I don't think there should have been an NI rise or people paying a fortune for their own care. I think inheritance tax should have been increased instead. I don't get the outrage about selling houses nobody lives in though.

@Kendodd

That's just daft. People will spend, spend, spend. I know we would.

Well what's wrong with elderly people going on a big spending spree? They'd be paying VAT on their spending and the spending would create jobs. I very much doubt many of them would sell their home and leave themselves homeless and if they downsize, well personally I think that's better for everyone.

I thought we were trying to cut down on buying stuff due to climate change. It's not in a lot of people's character (myself included) to spend money for the sake of it.

Then my poor cdc have to get rid of the stuff after my death

[quote EmmaGrundyForPM]@PlanDeRaccordement yes, I do understand that.

So, if the government put the money in (they can find billions for Test and Trace servces) but also set IHT much lower, people could sell or not sell their houses at the point of going into a care home, whichever they chose, but if they sold the money would be part of their assets and on their death would be taxed accordingly. There would have to be caveats etc to make sure that the money wasn't spent.

My mums house is worth about £400,000. If she goes into care, it will be sold and used to pay her care fees. If she doesn't go into a care home, my sister and I inherit £200,000 each, tax free, which we've never earned. That's ridiculous.

If social care is free to the user after a threshold/cap then if Mum stats at home she pays for her care out of her savings/income. When she dies, her house is sold. Sister and I get the first £100k tax free and then 50% of the remaining £300,000. So between us we inherit £250,000 not £400,000. And there is £150,000 in the social care pot.[/quote]
Why is it so ridiculous to have money you haven't earned anyway in the form of an inheritance?

(Private ) elderly / nursing care think should be paid for out of the person's estate / money . Why should others pay for this ? Few elderly care homes on NHS - there are very strict guidelines as to how you can access this - And most people won't get through the rules ) I was happy for Grandad's home to be sold for him to be comfortable - left me / parents with not a penny That's fine .. But there is only so much money to go around and I am not sure this is a Tory thing - I think it is just a government of whatever flavour thing. If there is a better way of doing it - good to hear.

@woodhill. it's not ridiculous to inherit. It is ridiculous to be able to inherit tax free.

Agree but it isn't tax free with probates and often the treasury demands the money before you even sell up.

If the new system comes in, will self funders still pay nearly twice as much for care in order to subsidise state funded residents? Or will the charges even out? I think it would be important to clarify this point.

@BasiliskStare

(Private ) elderly / nursing care think should be paid for out of the person's estate / money . Why should others pay for this ? Few elderly care homes on NHS - there are very strict guidelines as to how you can access this - And most people won't get through the rules ) I was happy for Grandad's home to be sold for him to be comfortable - left me / parents with not a penny That's fine .. But there is only so much money to go around and I am not sure this is a Tory thing - I think it is just a government of whatever flavour thing. If there is a better way of doing it - good to hear.

Why should others pay for nursing care generally? Why shouldn’t you pay for that out of your assets?

@MereDintofPandiculation - sorry if I was not clear - my point was you absolutely should pay for it out of your assets. Sorry again if I was not clear. If your point is nursing rather than care home - then that I have less experience of - so I apologise if I misunderstood your point

@endofthelinefinally

If the new system comes in, will self funders still pay nearly twice as much for care in order to subsidise state funded residents? Or will the charges even out? I think it would be important to clarify this point.

One of the complaints about the new system is that council and private care fees will be equalised, and that there won’t be enough put in the system for Councils to pay their fair share, so that without self funders’ subsidies, care homes are either going to go bust or are going to stop accepting state funded residents.

I don’t know if the cross subsidy is going to be stopped, I haven’t got that far through the white paper yet

@woodhill - With Grandad - they gave you a 6 month grace period ( if I remember correctly ) to sell house - but once sold - money will be taken

@endofthelinefinally

If the new system comes in, will self funders still pay nearly twice as much for care in order to subsidise state funded residents? Or will the charges even out? I think it would be important to clarify this point.

If LAs start to pay more, so it is more even, then that has to be paid somehow, probably with even higher tax and NI rises.

the issue is that not every care home does this and as care homes are private businesses, they can charge what they like. I'm not sure it's subsiding as much as knowing your customer base and that they can charge as they damn well please.

Some care homes operate more 'fairly' (in one respect) and charge all residents the same, it's just the LA funded ones need someone willing to pay the "top up"

@MereDintofPandiculation knowing this government I should imagine they haven't thought about the implications of ending the cross subsidy and when it was pointed out it came as a complete surprise.

I posted this on the other thread but it works just as well here. -

When I die, let's say I leave £1,000,000 (for ease of maths) and I pay say, 10% on the first £300,000 and 40% on the rest. That leaves an inheritance of £690,000 for my children £230,000 each. If they think its unfair that they didn't get even more free money and resent the fact they had to pay any tax on this free unearned money they get then I've done a really shit job for raising such money grappling, greedy people.

Not necessarily, they may be sick of the way the taxes in the UK are being spent. I know I am🤔

[quote BasiliskStare]@MereDintofPandiculation - sorry if I was not clear - my point was you absolutely should pay for it out of your assets. Sorry again if I was not clear. If your point is nursing rather than care home - then that I have less experience of - so I apologise if I misunderstood your point[/quote]
I was pointing out that everyone is keen to say that an elderly person with a health condition (eg dementia) should pay for it out of their assets, whereas we don't say that for younger people with health problems. There's no reason why older people paying for everything life throws at them is morally right and younger people paying for their health0. conditions is morally wrong. It's a choice we have made, or perhaps stumbled into, as a society. You could argue "why should the taxpayer pay, when otherwise the money will just be left as an inheritance" but exactly the same argument could be made for healthcare generally, state pensions, education.

I agree and am also sick of the way this government have used tax money to enrich their mates and donors. Meanwhile Tory austerity has killed tens of thousands of poor people. Life expectancy, pre covid, was actually falling under the Tories for poorer people in this country, absolutely shameful. The culture of greed is to blame if you ask me. Greed IS NOT good.

blogs.bmj.com/bmjopen/2017/11/15/health-and-social-care-spending-cuts-linked-to-120000-excess-deaths-in-england/

One point and then no more - it is valid for a family to earn some money and hope to pass it on to their children whatever the amount - equally - it is valid they have to pay for care etc. & none may be left & it is fine to pay IHT. I have voted for various parties - but I do find "the tories " a bit of a lazy argument - but there will be those who disagree. Labour , Green - tax proposals . I take each election as it comes - not some hindsight - hatred thing. Look at what the points are not "The witch is dead" or we all hate Blair

So that is my only point - I have no time for people who vote as a tribe without reading what they ( the parties ) are proposing

Possibly time for a name change

Where I live there are no council run care homes left. Those that are self funding or pay a contribution to fees will be in the same home as others who are paying nothing because they have insufficient assets.

I am not saying I agree but these circumstances can lead to resentment. Those who have sold their homes to pay for care do not see why they have to pay for what others get for free.

Don’t pile on me guys! Not my own views just trying to explain why some people are resentful.

What’s the answer?

We have to forget thinking we can all pay our way in old age. For every person self sufficient into their 90s there will be three people in their 80s requiring carers or care homes.

Selling a house usually isn’t enough to pay your way. five years or more years of care home fees will eat through the proceeds of most house sales. One of my relatives survived 13 years in a nursing home. Enough to burn the proceeds of his house sale more than twice over.

We are also living much longer in retirement. Life expectancy for men is around 85 and 87 for women (so over 20 years’ retirement) versus 5 or 6 years when retirement for men was 65.

if there is an expectation we should self fund care costs we have to saving more early and receive tax breaks.

I am not saying I agree but these circumstances can lead to resentment. Those who have sold their homes to pay for care do not see why they have to pay for what others get for free.

Those who have sold their homes to pay for care do not see why they have to pay 40% extra in order to cross subsidise what others get for free

I have no problem selling my mum’s home for her care, if/when it becomes necessary- it would upset her but she would have no need to know. What I will have a problem with is deciding how long that money will last her - and so what she can afford - if it ran out and she went into council funding then they make sure it’s the cheapest available and move the service user, and moves are well known to kill off the elderly. So it’s not about trying to keep an inheritance, or assuming if you have your own house it will pay for your care, there are other problems that can arise under this system.

The cost of care homes is disgusting tho. Life savings eaten up. Dad would rather of left his money and house to us. My brother still lives at the house.

My mum has care in her home at mo - 80% of cost of council care home so 424 per week - she obviously still needs to pay bills and food etc so actually works out more - it varies council to council and we’re managing on her savings which she doesn’t like actually, so I just pretend I have it covered, as not sure what she’s now saving for in reality 🤷🏼‍♀️ but don’t want to upset her if no need.