Split of money Elderly Parents sale of house to move to bungalow if one in care home

[NotwatchingSpooks]

Hi

We are currently looking at my husbands parents housing needs.
PIL are currently in a house they own with steep narrow stairs, trying/determine to stay there as long as possible. They are mid and late 80s.

FIL has had a serious stroke and watching him on the stairs is now a heart in your mouth experience. He can hardly walk and have very limited mobility and also limited speech as a result of the stroke, has a blue badge and attendance allowance.

MIL in not in best of health (has had several lots of cancer) but mobile, (although she requires a knee replacement).

FIL is currently refusing to have careers and MIL is struggling, we are looking all we can do to help, but are limited as live 2 hours away and have a dd with high level special needs. We think it would all be much easier for them if they were in a bungalow or flat, however they are resistant, this is obviously their decision, but I am concerned that if they don’t move now together FIL will fall on the stairs and end up in a care home.

Does anyone know What would happen if FIL went into a home and after this MIL wanted to sell house and move to a bungalow?
Would the proceeds of the house be split and so she would have 50% of the proceeds to buy the next property and would FILs 50% go to funding his care.

The bungalow would cost the same or even more than the house as they command a premium where they live.

No financial expert but would fil try a stair lift?
Reconditioned far cheaper. Frankly they sound beyond a move to a bungalow- sheltered housing more appropriate? And if they have capacity, it's their decision sadly.

I totally feel for you. I have both my parents living with me in a 4 bedroom house. My mum, in 2017 had several mini strokes which resulted in a triple heart bypass. She's now classed as disabled & struggles to get about. Last night, the inevitable happened & she fell down the stairs, ending up in a heap on the hallway floor. I'm now seriously looking at bungalows because we can't go on like this. She's not even 70 yet.. 🤦🏼‍♀️

Thanks so much for your advise and so sorry about your mum Duchess379, that must have been awful.

I think it is going to be a tricky few months.

Have you contacted your local council to ask for an assessment of needs? They can usually tell when people are lying about what they can do. Often, they can supply aids (eg walking frame, frame to help getting on/off loo) free of charge, as appropriate. You get an objective report as well.

Would they consider having a home assessment from social services, or therapists, district nurse to see if any adaptations at home might help. It seems a bit unfair on mil if he is refusing to get any help in. Is having the bed downstairs an option and a downstairs loo and shower installed. They can apply for small adaptations from the local authority and Grant's for bigger studd like a shower.

Thank you, I’ve been having a read of this board and I suspect that this is a very common theme, or people not wanting to move to more suitable and safer housing, even though it would really improve their quality of life.

PIL have had lots of advice, OT etc, but FIL refuses to even use a walking stick or use a Walking frame etc. Which means that he constantly needs support and help when trying to walk. His determination is admirable, but very misguided as I suspect there will sadly be an accident or my MIL will become very rundown.

Fortunately they have a downstairs loo etc, the main problem is that they love their house, it is lovely, but unfortunately the stairs are an accident waiting to happen for FIL and it really would be much better if they would consider moving to either a bungalow or a flat.

However I suspect that we are going to end up with a crisis/ serious fall and FIL will end up in a care home, because they will miss the opportunity for a bungalow, flat or supported living type setting . We will them be left trying to move MIL and potentially having to make difficult decisions as they will need to potentially either split the capital in the house or split anything leftover after the move that could have been used to update the new property.

Age UK will know the ins and outs of the legalities regarding finances/selling the house.

It looks like the proceeds of a sale would not need to be split if they were needed for your MIL to buy somewhere more suitable.

www.ageuk.org.uk/globalassets/age-uk/documents/factsheets/fs38_property_and_paying_for_residential_care_fcs.pdf

Thank you, from this it would it appear that it is only any residual amounts that would be split, so that does make it easier, unless they find something that is cheaper but needs a lot spent on it.

This is what it says;

If your spouse, partner, or other relative lives in a disregarded property, they may decide to move somewhere smaller or more manageable. The existing disregard only applies to your original property and once it is sold, your share of the proceeds of sale can be taken into account as capital in your financial assessment.
Annex E of the guidance has an example of a local authority disregarding part of the proceeds of sale to meet a partner’s downsizing need:
Max has moved into a care home and has a 50% interest in a property that continues to be occupied by his civil partner, David. The value of the property is disregarded whilst David lives there, but he decides to move to a smaller property that he can better manage and so sells their shared home to fund this.
At the time the property is sold, Max’s 50% share of the proceeds could be taken into account in the financial assessment, but, in order to ensure that David is able to purchase the smaller property, Max makes part of his share of the proceeds from the sale available. In such circumstance, it would not be reasonable to treat Max as having deprived himself of capital in order to reduce his care home charges.
This should apply to married, unmarried and civil partners. The authority also has discretion to treat relatives in the same way.
Once a new property is purchased, your share of any remaining sale proceeds will usually be included as capital in the financial assessment.
The authority can use its discretion to disregard sale proceeds in other situations, for example to help your partner secure rented accommodation, and must consider your individual request.
If you pass on any sale proceeds to someone else and the authority do not agree this was reasonable, they can financially assess you as if you still possessed the money, see section 4 for more information.
Source
Age UK factsheet 38
Property and paying for residential care (amended October 2019)

It's very difficult, on the one hand they have capacity to make decisions (in theory) but on the other hand, well.... they're not able to objectively evaluate the pros and cons, and so you are left with the default position of them having to 'learn the hard way'
which is not good for anyone 😣

Hey op

My understanding is more or less what’s in your last post. The (disregarded) 50% that belongs to the person in care can be used by the spouse to fund the purchase of a new property, but the person in care retains a 50% share of the new property (which continues to be disregarded). If the spouse then dies or goes into care and the property is sold at that point this triggers a new financial assessment, which will take the 50% share value into account.

Sounds to me it may already be too late and your parents next move might be to sheltered accom or a home. My parents moved from unsuitable house to good bungalow at age early 90s. My sister intended to live nearby. She moved in with them to help them settle and never moved out, as when she was there she saw so much more clearly how badly they were managing.

Age UK are fantastic. If you need more personalised help than their helpline can give, they arrange for an expert to call you.

I guess your FIL won't switch to a downstairs bedroom? Stairlift?

I assume MIL needs your FIL to have carers as she's barely managing. Does he know how selfish he is being? Can nobody spell it out for him?

Otherwise yes, you're just going to have to wait for a crisis. Very possibly him falling downstairs and taking MIL with him as she helps him up from behind.

My parents are in just this situation.

Dm in care house, self funded. Dad moving to retirement flat from 3 bed family home. The flat costs more than 50%, because that's what retirement flats cost in his area, eg house selling for 500k; flat costs 300k. My Dsis and I have POA so we have agreed that Dad can use some of Mum's 50% and they split the remaining amount 50:50. We'll argue with social services about whose due what when Mum's money runs out. If they want to take some of final sale when Dad goes so be it.

In the mean time I know what it's like to watch the slow motion car crash of when elderly relatives decide to tough it out in unsuitable housing. You worry about every phone call. Get every scrap of care and support going into them that they'll accept (statutory and voluntary) - gets them know to the system and lets them know the system too. They will need that when, and it's unlikely to be if, the brown stuff hits the fan.

Thanks for all your advice, in answer to questions.

They are in a small 3 bed house, it just has a living room diner, kitchen, small toilet and a garage downstairs. There is currently no downstairs bedroom. We will have to either convert the garage or section off part of the lounge to create a bedroom and also make a wet room in the garage, either are possible. We could possibly extend to the side of the house if they changed to an electric boiler and we got rid of the oil tank.

MIL is also saying they like to sleep together, however she does not want to sleep downstairs 🤔. I am trying to understand their desire to stay in the house, if it were us I would move without hesitation, to something purpose built that was designed to help me live life more easily and keep us together and out of care homes.

Having been through this already with my own late parents I know that they have a finite window for supported living and if they leave it, we will miss the window of opportunity and it will be a care or nursing home.

In terms of a stairlift, we can do so, but it is a very small twisting staircase. I am also concerned about the transfer on and off the seat 💺for FIL.

Fortunately MILis very sensible and walked up stairs in front of FIL as said this is what she had been told to do.

FIL has been told by MIL that he is going to need to have careers in, they are all lined up by MIL , but she has not started them. I’m really not sure if it is him or her as to why this is. My suspicion is that she does not want them in the house.

We are going to have to have a gentle conversation to ask them what they would like to do and we will try to support them with this.

DPotter we crossed posts, sorry you are also going through this , it sounds like you have found a solution .

DH and his brother have POA.

FIL can understand but has very limited speech but is good at saying NO, MIL is very clever and astute and has always worked so has her own pension and money. However she is struggling to care for him, and cope with her own health issues.

Thanks so much for sharing and hope the flat works

This is a warning to everyone, tell your parents to get their shit together well before they start to lose the plot.
I would just leave them to it.

I think they expected to decline gradually, FIL was extremely well and fit until the day he had his stroke, so the change was overnight for them.

I totally agree with people getting their act together and I will definitely do so myself, but as so many have said, you can’t force your parents to do so and the longer they leave it the more entrenched they can get.

They had several opportunities to move when suitable bungalows came up for sale that FIL dismissed at the time. I’m hopeful that they will see sense over the summer.

It's true that you can't force them but you can say to them 'if you don't do 'x' then you will bring 'xyz' consequences upon yourself'
They are playing fast and loose, if they want you to take on the role of parent then they have to obey you and do as you say. They switch and flit between naughty child and stern authoritarian, this is a situation where you can only lose, I would walk away and leave them to it.