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Elderly parents

Finance / Empty House Help Please

14 replies

MsJinks · 11/01/2021 19:17

Hi - I posted before re caring for both high need parents - I was so good at it they’re both now in hospital 🤦🏻‍♀️ After speaking with many people whose job ‘wasn’t theirs’ there are finally arrangements to get them both in the same care home for rehab and assessment when medically fit.
My main concern is managing their home whilst they are not living in it. I have no POA nor liable to get it, my dad, who did all the finances is mightily confused since his accident and my mum part way through a dementia assessment and not done finances since my dad retired before her 30 odd years ago. Neither can write adequately currently either. Anyway there are going to be bills that I can’t cover with my wages - they don’t do many direct debits and definitely no online banking - cheques all the way. Even if they were capable of sorting bills I can’t see them to take them in, and they can’t sign cheques.
I should add they own their own home and have money in premium bonds and a decent amount in their bank. So my queries:
Will companies/council hold bills for a while?
What happens if they just don’t pay them?
How does it work going forwards if they remain in residential but don’t see to things properly?
I expect a care bill for my mum to come in as she was starting to pay from 9 November plus utilities, carelink and possibly going on to council tax, water rates, insurances, depending how long they are in initially.
Does the state take charge at any point? When would that be and how do they do that? If they’re not assessed as being not capable then do they just run into normal default on debt procedures?
I’m also worried about the house insurance- will they let me change it?
I plan to go Wednesday to start the admin - any tips at all gratefully received, not just financial.

OP posts:
dingledongle · 11/01/2021 19:19

Age uk has excellent advice

Also your local Social Service Dept Smile

Good luck 😉

FLOrenze · 11/01/2021 19:31

I would Telephone The Court of Protection for advice. They are usually the ones who tale over the administration of finances these cases. You are not liable for any costs.

FLOrenze · 11/01/2021 19:34

This is their contact details

Finance / Empty House Help Please
AmandaHoldensLips · 11/01/2021 19:40

Filling out a POA application isn't as daunting as you might think, especially if you are generally quite good at admin and online forms. However you might need to get advice.

Age UK are very helpful. Care home admin staff are also usually helpful.

FLOrenze · 11/01/2021 21:40

Unfortunately, if they have both lost capacity, it is too late for POA.

Soontobe60 · 11/01/2021 21:45

I believe that if they go into an assessment unit they don't pay for 6 weeks. If they need permanent care, then their needs are assessed individually.
If you phone up all the utility providers and explain the situation, they will be able to advise you of what to do. Also, go into their bank and take the utility bills - they may be able to authorise payment form their account.

loveisagirlnameddaisy · 11/01/2021 21:55

If both parents have lost mental capacity, you need to apply to the Court of Protection for a Deputyship Order. It can take months but I'm sure if you contact them, they can help you get the ball rolling.

MsJinks · 12/01/2021 06:50

Hi - thank you for the replies. This is the 3rd time my mum has been in assessment- mainly this time as they need to assess what support they’d need as a couple - I think it’s better as they can be got up daily and made to try walking daily which doesn’t happen in their home - the assessment for care is useful but whether they follow it, or bin carers off again as previously, well it’s a guessing game.
Re POA whilst my mum is being tested for dementia the therapist arranging the care said she definitely had capacity for POA. I guess it’s a specific assessment? My dad has just got confused which I’m told is his previous infection and may take months, so not sure where he would sit. They definitely would not ageee to POA - my Dad was a lawyer, and used to tell of horror stories when families take stuff in these or similar circumstances so it would not be happening and I don’t take it personally.
I’m wondering what happens in this potential no man’s land of not agreeing a POA but not needing guardianship? Also can the state just take over or do you have to apply to be a guardian?
In the meantime I will try and get an appointment at their bank - perhaps if they always pay certain bills the same incoming ones can be cleared, or hopefully my parents may be able to agree this via a note or a phone call perhaps.
Thank you again.

OP posts:
MsJinks · 12/01/2021 07:01

I should add they’re very old fashioned re bills - always cheque or cash - it probably won’t really be not understanding things need paying yet - more how that can happen. Whilst at home my dad thought I could take his cheque made to cash to draw but in the end paid me a cheque to get desired cash- it was unreadable and ripped - he was angry when I said they wouldn’t take it but let me write it again and him sign - I felt really uncomfortable though doing it this way - if I could have afforded it I wouldn’t have but for some reason he needed 350 in the house in case 🤦🏻‍♀️ and it was already 290 I’d paid on other stuff - I’ve kept accounts on this - only a notepad for my dad’s records, but it doesn’t feel quite right standing over someone supervising the cheque they’re writing you, and don’t think he was happy either.

OP posts:
FLOrenze · 12/01/2021 08:13

This is so sad and I really feel for you as I went through something similar. You are trying your best ans it is so frustrating.

AlwaysLatte · 12/01/2021 09:55

My Dads house is currently empty... although I have POA for him (in any case he is of sound mind anyway) I don't for my SM who is in a care home and it's jointly owned. We're just paying the council tax and insurance and minimal electricity to keep the temperature low/light timers on etc. There are a couple of bills which haven't been paid yet (including her care home bill which is £70k and rising due to a very complicated situation with frozen accounts due to her dementia, and the companies have been very understanding. I think as long as they know the full situation they are usually ok. We've had no threatening letters or anything. Do get advice though, as others have said Age UK are fantastic.

MereDintofPandiculation · 12/01/2021 11:43

Some thoughts in no particular order:

Community charge - varies from LA to LA, but if they're both in hospital for an extended period you may be able to get community charge waved.

Insurance: most policies have a clause which says insurance doesn't apply if home is unoccupied for more than 60 days continuously. So you need to tell the insurance companies the situation. They may insist you move to a more expensive "unoccupied premises" insurance, but that's a better option than something drastic happening and finding that insurance won't cover it.

Since we're in January, you'll need to either maintain the house at a reasonable temperature (insurance companies specify 15deg) so the pipes don't freeze, or turn the CH and the water off completely.

Other people have a responsibility to ensure your parents aren't being the victims of fraud, and most companies are very good at not altering any financial arrangements at the behest of a stranger on the phone. LAs are sometimes more lax, so you may find it OK to deal with community charge, but you'll need to contact Office of Public Guardian/Court of Protection/Age UK for how to deal with the rest. Or try the hospital social worker. They encounter this question a lot.

Your mother being assessed for dementia is not a reason for not being able to get PoA - all that's required is she should have capacity to understand the implications of what she's doing on the day that she signs the document that gives you PoA. It sounds like your father doesn't have that capacity at the moment. But PoA won't help you in the short term - it takes several weeks to get it registered.

Don't feel bad about writing cheques for him - you're safeguarding him in allowing to continue to manage his affairs. I used to cope by writing cheques and letters for my father and just getting him to sign them (If you think of it, this is exactly how the Prime Minister works - civil servants write his letters, and he just appends his signature), but I can't see how to make this work in hospital, because somebody else would have to explain to him, and this may not work, even if anybody had the time to do it!

I believe that if they go into an assessment unit they don't pay for 6 weeks. Up to 6 weeks. As soon as it's decided that a) rehabilitation has been successful or b) the the person will need long term care, the entitlement stops.

They stop being responsible for their care home fees once their individual savings (including share of the house) drop to below £23000. There's an income limit too. There will be plenty of elderly people without family to deal with finances, so Social Services should be able to advise you (though remember the loyalty of a Social Services finance person will always be towards getting money for the LA rather than ensuring your parents' financial best interests).

MrsClatterbuck · 17/01/2021 21:28

If you told your dad that he either gets a POA or it's a case of the Office of Care and Protection. That is the government controlling his money because if even you are appointed deputy it will be them you answer to and not your dad. I have a separate mandate on my mum's bank account which means I can write cheques set up direct debits (my mum is death on these but why?) and I have a debit card in my name. I am not named on the account and if she passes the mandate is cancelled. She is in a home at present under a temporary residency. She has signed forms so I can get money from her savings account. They give me a cheque made payable to her which I pay into the account where I hold a mandate. I also have a card for her post office account where her pension and AA is paid into.
You need to check with her house insurance if the house is empty as we now have had to take out a different policy.

brightertimes123 · 04/02/2021 16:03

I'm in a slightly similar position. DM has recently gone into a care home but was in hospital 6
months prior. We had no clue for ages whether she would be strong enough to go back home

Her house has been empty the whole time with me popping over a couple of times each week to check on things

I have been trying to get PoA but it's painfully slow especially with lockdown and trying to organise video calls between her, the care
Home and solicitor. Thankfully everything is on DD so bills are being paid at least but I have no access to any accounts.

We are now being chased for fees but as I don't have PoA can't make any decision regarding selling the house. I understand there is a 'deferment of fees' option but it all requires so much paperwork and I don't know if I even have the authority to apply.

Feel like telling our LA that they are welcome to deal with it all - I resign!

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