So Frustrating

[FullersEarth]

I'm posting here just to get things off my chest, but if anyone has any advice, then that would be most welcome.

DMIL and DFIL are both in their eighties and have had a difficult few years, health-wise.

We recently suggested applying for attendance allowance for both of them, and had a difficult few weeks arranging for the forms to be filled in and sent.

They have an irrational fear of authority and officialdom, and we have spent hours downloading and printing paperwork and forms for them (they don't do internet, have no printer etc). Then we have patiently sat with them (well, DFIL, as DMIL is just not interested) and completed the forms, provided envelopes and stamps, gone to the post office and sent the applications off for them, as they really are not all that bothered in getting over £700 per month free money that they are genuinely entitled to (awaiting the decision on the outcome, which may take a few weeks though).

We have genuinely tried to be helpful and kind, trying not to pressure them, but can see that everyday life is getting more and more difficult for them.

In conversation, we asked if they had set up any powers of attorney. They have a confused understanding that this means DH and DBIL will in the future somehow take all their money and put them in a home.

It is so frustrating. I don't think we can do anything further for them, having downloaded and printed off a POA general guide from the excellent Age UK site. The gov.uk POA forms and guidelines are all downloaded and printed, waiting to be filled in. Again, we will help them to set up the applications.

Does anyone else get frustrated by their parents' attitude? We try our best to make things better for them. I don't even think they have read the guidelines, they are in total denial. Should a POA need to be put in place and they don't have one, then they will be unprotected and unable to make even basic decisions.

It is tempting to just wait for them to raise it again, but I don't think they will. Thanks for reading.

It is almost impossible. The way we got ours to fill in POA was to ask them if they wanted to make their own decisions about their future or leave it up to a Doctor or Social Worker. When they asked what they meant , we explained that they could put their wishes in writing and tell us what they wanted. It was a long old struggle but we got their in the end.

After caring for them for 10. Years I came to really value the POA. I got so angry with my husband, who was then in his 60s who refused to complete one for himself. I had to explain that i would be unable to access any of his funds if something major happened to him. It was my son who,persuaded him for n the end.

I have PoA for my dad, which he drew up quite willingly at the time. But he's still quite suspicious of it and occasionally says things like what if DH and I split up and DH keeps all his money. This is both impossible and quite insulting to both of us, but I try and let it wash over me.

I do keep a record of every time I use the PoA and make sure that I discuss with dad what I'm doing in his name, even if he then forgets. Covering my back in case of issues later.

Yes FLOrenze, we have tried to explain that it will take their wishes into account, it seemed quite harsh to have to explain all the dreadful scenarios where a POA would be most useful as they find the whole thing very upsetting. So that's why we have taken a softly softly approach so far.

AChickenCalledDaal, I'm sure DFIL and DMIL think the same, that somehow they will have everything taken away, their home, all their money, and be uprooted from where they live, so that we can benefit whilst they are still alive, but out of the way and ignored in a care home.

Nothing could be further from the truth. Sadly, I think we may have to have a difficult conversation with them.

Incidentally, this has made DH and I determined to set up our own POAs and we have already discussed it in principle with our own DC.

My parents refused to do POA. My dad took unwell and went to hospital. We took mum to my house 40 miles away. My mum's dementia escalated away from her own home. She ended up being sectioned in a different hospital from my dad.. My dad got out of hospital then had a catastrophic fall and was dead within a week of being released. My mum therefore was stuck in a mental health unit [55 miles away] with the Council acting as her Guardian until we could apply for legal guardianship. The legal work took a full six months. We were unable to move her while guardianship processes were underway. My mum has been in a care home for four years. She has paid a small fortune in fees to the Office of the Public Guardian and annually we have to submit a set of her financial accounts.

Personally I wouldn't recommend softly softly. I would be quite specific about how awful it can become. Ask around your friends and someone will have a tale not too different from mine. Give them 'real' examples of people from your area. Even consider writing them a letter outlining how sensible it is to have the POA 'on file' .
I know of at least a dozen local POAs which were done as a direct result of my parents' refusal and our subsequent nightmare.

Oh, Fortysix, how terrible for you.

Like insurance, it's something you have, hoping you will never need it.

I will raise it again when we next visit, but on past experience, they will choose to ignore our concerns.

Yes insurance if you like.

You could tell them when you explored it for them it made you realise it was absolutely worth doing for you and DH right now.
Tell them you are inviting long standing friends to come over and be your witnesses. Ask them if they want to do theirs at the same time? Suggest you very happy to cater for two of their friends and make a 'occasion' or 'party' of it... Peer pressure and all that. Just a thought...

I had this with my parents (who weren’t at all interested) I spent hours applying for AA and started POA. My siblings ganged up on me and thought I was trying to do something under handed.
In the finish I applied for AA which was bloody hard work and got a person from a local Carers association to come round and explain and complete POA forms.

Thank you both for your insights.

As DPILs only have the two sons, we have proposed that DH and DBIL are named. They also have concerns (totally unfounded) that their money and property will go outside the family. So much so that they have constructed their wills to ensure that everything goes to blood relatives only. As much as I love them, I find it quite insulting to DSIL and I.

Daddylonglegs1965, do you recall how long the AA decision took, the forms were sent off about a month ago.

I would say maybe about 6 weeks or possibly just over to hear the outcome of AA. My parents were refused it. But I asked the man from the Carers Association to look into it. He has put in an appeal and I have just emailed his office to find out where they are up to with it tonight as my dads getting much worse.
I know with PIP payments a lady from CAB said most are refused initially until they appeal. So if your refused it might be worth doing,
I was putting all three siblings down on the POA forms (but brother and sister got their knickers in a knot about it). It was so much hassle for ingratitude, suspicion and awkwardness and it was also bloody hard work.

Thank you Daddylonglegs1965.

We're hoping that it will be good news on the AA application, once we hear back. That would certainly be a springboard to a conversation about POA, and we could stress the positives to them.

Hi, I think your parents are muddling up what is what. Would a quick guide help you?

DWP appointeeship will help you fill out benefit claim forms on their behalf, if they don't understand them. And you can manage their state benefits including pensions and AA (attendance allowance) claims.

LPA finances and property can be set up ahead of time and used with their permission to act upon their instructions, if need be, to manage money . It's better to appoint someone you trust than wait until you lose capacity in finances and go down the more expensive deputyship route which may result in 6-9 months of debts accruing that no one has legal authority to pay until it is agreed by court of protection, which is a slow process . Unless all of it is on DDs, many bills won't get paid. People cannot use LPA finances when you have capacity to act against your wishes. They can't also do anything dodgy as has scrutiny by office of public guardians once you have lost capacity to manage your own finances. (Theft is theft, so regardless of POA or not, everything has to be in the person's best financial interests not in POAs or anyone elses)

LPA health and welfare LPA H&W) is worth giving ahead of time also if you trust someone to know what you prefer and what your views might be, as the person will make decisions in your best interests. Unlike LPA finances, LPA H&W can ONLY be used once you have lost capacity to decide in that specific area. Otherwise you decide. it never can be used to decide when you could decide yourself with capacity.

And Regardless of whether anyone has LPA H&W, no one can authorise an uneccessary deprivation of liberty , i.e. legally put you in a care home against your wishes, if it is absolutely not needed and in your best interests. Because there is DOLS (Deprivation Of Liberty Safeguards) legislation arising from Mental capacity act (MCA) 2005. LPA h&w cannot authorise an ongoing deprivation of liberty , it has an independent check. They will look at what could be achieved or support you could get within reason and realistic options, given your needs, and what is least restrictive in principles of the act. It is independent and regardless of who is funding (private/self/ local authority or CCG /NHS).

You can probably tell this is my area of expertise. 😃

I hope your parents get AA if they meet criteria for it. I have to remind people sometimes that DWP does not give disability benefits out lightly, if they are eligible they are eligible.bevause it is a tight criteria. That's what our NI goes towards all our lives as well as other support when we need it. I always say just be honest on the form, don't fudge, exagorate, downplay nor pretend you are ok, just say what it is.

@FullersEarth
6-8 weeks. Unless there is a discrepancy in evidence. The positives to POA are that they can only ever lawfully act in their best interests. They get to select whom they trust most.

Thank you for your replies WillLokireturn, that is really helpful.

We do have all the guidelines and are ready to go (with filling in the POA applications) once we have had some meaningful conversations with DPILs. They are in such denial and have misunderstood what a POA is. They originally thought it was an aspect of their wills, until we discussed it.

If I'm honest, they are so careful with money, that I think they begrudge paying the fees. Although £84 per POA per person is money well-spent if it avoids the months of legal wrangling, uncertainty and shock, should the council and health professionals take over without regard for their wishes.

If they become incapacitated, you won't be able to get PoA and will have to go for deputyship which costs a whole lot more. Without it, you wouldn't be able to spend any of their money on looking after them. So spending the £84 now saves many hundreds of pounds later on.

Exactly Pandiculation.

It's so frustrating, as we want them to be prepared and protected, should the worst happen, but they won't have it.

I had to be harsh and go down the lines of it's better to have someone who cares about your best interests making decisions for you when you cannot, than any old person who doesn't know you. Got solicitor to house and got the job done. It was definitely tough love but, now we have needed to use it, it's been invaluable. Get one for health and finance and get a will sorted. All of the aggro you'll face without one really isn't worth it for the sake of a few tough conversations. I think it's a generation thing tbh. Me and my husband both have them. I'm 45.

Thank you Girasole02. You're right, I think it is generational.

Wills are in place, and have been for many years. That's why it's so frustrating that they know they need to make their wishes known when they die, but just can't be bothered to do the same whilst they are alive.

DPILs have heard back, good news on the AA front.

DMIL has been awarded higher rate and DFIL has been awarded standard rate.

They are both in shock, but in a nice way. Today DFIL raised the POA question, asked DH and DBIL to come round to sort out the paperwork. Which we are over the moon about.

Apparently, DMIL was scared and panicky about the whole thing, but once the AA was sorted, has done a bit of a U-turn.

That's great news, both AA ad PoA.

Are you happy that DFiL has got only the standard rate?

Other arguments I've used: "if you had a car accident, and were incapacitated, you wouldn't be able to get hold of any of your money because you wouldn't be able to sign anything" "PoA Health and Welfare means if you can't speak for yourself, doctors HAVE to listen when I tell them what you would want. Without it they can just do what they want without taking your views into account".

Yes Pandiculation, DFIL has been assessed correctly, we believe.

And thank you for the extra ammunition to support any future wavering by DPILs. We are hopeful that it will not be needed, going by what DFIL has already said.