Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Elderly parents

LPA - health and welfare - what would it help with?

11 replies

Redcliff · 09/12/2018 19:48

My DF is becoming less able to manage his affairs and today we sorted out a finance LPA. I was also hoping to sort out a health and welfare one but it all got a bit much for him so we said we would wait till after Christmas. Is it really that usful to have - he has already said he wants doctors to decide on major care issues so not sure if there is any point?

Be great to hear about other peoples experiences on where they found them usful or not.

OP posts:
hatgirl · 09/12/2018 20:06

It's the welfare bit that is important really in terms of decision making

It basically allows you to make the day to day decisions about his life if he loses capacity.

Most of those decisions are made daily under the 'best interests provisions' of the mental capacity act and don't technically need legal intervention/poa so far example do you (or care workers) give him cereal or toast for breakfast, does he wear the red or blue jumper, does he sit next to Doris or Derek in the TV room.

But the big decisions like which care home he should go to, what kind of care he should have, should he have rehab or making choices about whether to accept certain treatments that would prolong life but not necessarily improve it etc would all be covered by a health and welfare power of attorney and would give you automatic right to make those decisions on his behalf once he is no longer able to (and in the absence of any contrary advanced directives he may have made).

LPoA for finances is for admin purposes

LPoA for health and welfare covers everything else.

Redcliff · 10/12/2018 08:46

Thank you so much hatgirl - really usful

OP posts:
CMOTDibbler · 10/12/2018 08:54

I have both health/welfare and financial PoA for both my parents. It means the hospital will talk to me properly when they are admitted, that social services will engage into a conversation with me, and that I can say 'no, I know that doing that procedure might add to mums life, but she won't tolerate it and I don't believe it to be in her best interests'.

The biggest thing is making care choices so I can decide (for instance) that mum might move to a care home close to me when dad dies - she couldn't consent to it and no one else will decide it either

Fortysix · 10/12/2018 15:37

Absolutely useful - My parents refused and the consequences were catastrophic, expensive and dire...

DF and DM lived together; DF caring for DM whose vascular dementia was reasonably advanced. DF also had Alzheimer's. DF was hospitalised with pneumonia then mobility issues and ended up in hospital for 10 weeks. DM came to live with my DSis and I, alternating between our homes while DF got better. DM reacted violently to being uprooted from her home and after four weeks was sectioned and sent to a mental health unit. DM and DF were therefore in separate hospitals. For six weeks we managed to take DF in a wheelchair from his hospital to visit DM in hers, who by this time also had broken her wrist. DF was released from hospital back to his own home on the understanding that he remained downstairs until he recovered further. Three days later, DF defied instruction and tried to change a battery in a smoke alarm in the upstairs hall. Tragically he fell downstairs and was in a coma for four days at DM's hospital before he died.
Without POA we had to apply for Guardianship for our DM. Dad's will left everything to DM. All finances were frozen. Mum was transferred to another hospital another 10 miles in the opposite direction where she had to wait for four months for the Guardian application to go through. While the guardianship application was 'live' she was unable to move to a care home as she had to maintain the same address. We had to cover some of my parents' household bills (those not covered by direct debit.)
My DSis and I reckon we have paid nearly £10k in legal fees and annual registrations just to the Office of the Public Guardian in the last 3.5 years. We also have to submit financial accounts each year on her behalf to account for all her spending. This is so harsh and time consuming. Literally going to the bank to register her Guardianship and take over her humble bank current and savings account took SIX visits with both my sister and I in attendance. When we had to make decisions about mum moving from her second hospital to a care home she had to be represented by an Advocacy officer. Everyone throughout the process was hugely sympathetic but it added several mammoth layers of bureaucracy at an incredible stressful time.
I now have my POA in place and so does my DSis. It is never too early to sort it out.

NewspaperTaxis · 11/12/2018 17:44

I suggest you Google my name 'Newspaper Taxis' and this issue to save me repeating everything, but in 7 Surrey care homes the one thing I wish we'd known to get is Lasting Power of Attorney in Health and Welfare for my mother. We had it in Finance for some reason but not the other.

Nobody forewarned us about this, not the Parkinson's nurse, not the GP, nobody. Later you figure out why - it gives them total control, in particular regarding any cover-up going regarding screw-ups or dodgy stuff for your parent's care.

You will have all the responsibility and none of the power. They on the other hand will have all the power and none of the responsibility.

You won't even be able to read your parent's medical notes - I kid you not. That means any cow at the care home can have fun defaming you and smearing you on the notes and you can't see it (though you can send a Subject Access Request to the Council for that specific info, and they'll spend months getting back to you.)

And you cannot get it retrospectively. Once your parent is deemed to have lost mental capacity, that's it. Sure, you can apply for the Deputyship but you won't get it, it's rare as hen's teeth. To be clear, losing mental capacity doesn't mean ranting and raving and their not recognising you - my mother never got into that state.

You can only appreciate what power is when you don't have it, and someone else does.

hatgirl · 11/12/2018 20:40

Annnnnnd as usual I have to agree with the sentiment behind newspapers post but not the conspiracy element.

Social workers love it when families have all their lasting power of attorneys sorted out. It means significantly fewer meetings for us sorting out silly details via best interest processes that families are more than capable of sorting themselves.

Believe me when I say the various professionals are not that linked up or organised that there is some big conspiracy to deter families from seeking POA so we can have power and control. We can't even get our fax machines to talk to each other never mind our computer systems.

I and every other social worker/health care professional I know urges everyone to get their LoPAs sorted to avoid the kind of situations Newspaper describes.

NewspaperTaxis · 12/12/2018 15:15

Sigh... hatgirl, you are a social worker. I take it you don't work in Surrey. Or Rotherham. Or Rochdale. Or Telford. Or Oxford. Or Kensington & Chelsea. Or any other local authorities that are dodgy and wholly unaccountable.

And believe me, they really really are that linked up. It's actually quite admirable in a way - in a wartime situation it would be brilliant. Careless talk saves lives - and costs money.

Social workers just love holding meetings. They get paid for it, and can make out they're doing work. Meetings serve a myriad of purposes aside from that. Anything they say in the meeting can and will be doctored in the Minutes, while anything the family says can be embellished and put in writing, whereupon according to mad logic it 'becomes true'. Nothing that exonerates them goes in writing or on the Minutes. So it never happened.

Families are asked to sign a 'confidentiality agreement' beforehand, barring them from telling anyone anything about what took place. At first they'll feel great about this - it's like signing the Official Secrets Act, you're sitting with the big boys now! Later you realise that the purpose of the Act is to protect the Officials, not the Secrets, to recycle an old Yes Minister joke. You've been had. It's the equivalent of a non-disclosure agreement. Only you got nothing in return!

Social workers hate emails and will discourage you from sending them. Why? Because they cannot contain you that way, and you are putting stuff in writing rather than them. Again, when they put it in writing, they can write it up how they like. A meeting offers a controlled environment.

So in the meeting they'll do the Surrey County Council time-honoured ruse: would you like to get your parent back to the family home (if they are in a care home you're unhappy with, that is). Feeling exonerated and going along with their suggestion, you'll say yes. Ooops! It's a trick! They can then make out that the suggestion came from you, and that you may abscond with your parent from the care home. This is a big big deal, and it allows them to do all sorts of things, from carrying out a fishing expedition on you via the care home, to even getting RIPA surveillance going on your emails and phone, supposedly because you're a 'danger' to your parent but actually so they can gather dirt on you. It's surveillance, and that's the other purpose of the meeting - you happily tell them everything, while they tell you nothing.

When you find out you've been stitched up, who can you tell? No one, aside from them. You signed a confidentiality agreement remember.

Should you lose your rag in the meeting, they can do you for abuse and intimidation, and even call the police out. So it didn't happen that way, or at all? So what, who are you going to tell? You signed a confidentiality agreement, remember.

Maybe you'll take their word on it when they say you can move your parent from the home. My friends, get it in writing or it never happened. Their 'kind' offer won't go on the Minutes, and they can do you for 'absconding'. (Usually it won't get to that point, to be fair, as when the new prospective care home phones up the current care home for an assessment, current care home can tip them off that social services have the family in their sights and they will back off.) Anyway, if you abscond that means getting a Court Order barring you from the care home, or at least restricting your visits. Of course, if you are paying frequent visits because for some mysterious reason the care home isn't giving your parent enough to drink (cough... Liverpool Care Pathway) then that works great for them! Your parent will be dead, that saves the State money, job done! You won't be able to prove a thing.

In any conflict between the family and the care home - and the local authority ie social workers will always side with the care home on this - the first port of call is: did they get Lasting Power of Attorney in Health and Welfare? What's that, they didn't? Great - we can go to work on them!

If you ask for the Minutes, they won't send them for months.
If they smear you on your parent's medical notes, you won't find out for months, even if you suspect, cos you don't have LPA. Any SAR will meet with obfuscation. It's all well thought out, they hold all the aces.

The smears are held to be 'true' unless you refute them. So if you can't find out, you can't refute them. They remain 'true'.

Social workers in adult social care love this because it's 'fictional work' of the same kind the police and CPS carried out re Sir Cliff and Paul Gambaccuni. It's more fun than real work and it's a fact based on my own experience that Surrey CC adult social care turns a blind eye to all allegations made against their dodgy care homes. But they have to be pretending to some work somehow - this is where concerned families come in, and get regularly turned over!

I like you hatgirl, I assume you know full well how corrupt and dodgy your chosen field is, and by making these posts you aim to get me to reveal all the tricks and tactics of your profession while shying away from whistleblowing yourself.

But doesn't anyone email you to have a quiet word? You're playing with fire, my dear.

hatgirl · 12/12/2018 21:25

Yes councils are closing librarys and museums and slashing services just so they can fund adult social care social workers to dick about with families for personal kicks. Hmm

OP - you get the gist, LPoA for health and welfare gives you the power to make decisions instead of the state if your dad loses capacity. In my (extensive) experience the 'state' (social services) will usually go with what you want providing it's realistic but LPoA greases the wheel and cuts out a lot of otherwise unnecessary meetings and paperwork. It also gives you more power in situations where there may be disputes.

NewspaperTaxis · 13/12/2018 18:41

Adult social care social workers get funded anyway hatgirl, irrespective of library closures, which Councils don't really give a damn about. Not the best day to talk about what Councils choose to prioritise:

www.theguardian.com/world/2018/dec/12/nobbled-cork-spends-6000-polishing-door-handles-to-impress-prince-charles

Then there's Northamptonshire's expensive multi-million HQ, or Surrey spending a fortune contesting childcare arrangements so that families have to take legal action... No expense spared by Councils when it's on themselves.

In my also extensive experience, albeit in Surrey, Safeguarding teams are there to side with the care homes at all times and simply don't advertise themselves to care home relatives, all the better to stay in the shadows until needed (by the care homes who have to deal with families wondering why they can't get staff to give them any drink cough Liverpool Care Pathway). And yes, they do like to harass families, it's their job, and you may as well pick people who enjoy doing their job.

Oh, and social workers like to time a hit on the family for Christmas! It's just the way they are. I hope you're not planning such a thing in your manor, hatgirl! If so, don't let me hold you up.

Remember. Without LPA in Health and Welfare, later social services will become the decision makers for your parent's care. And dead bodies save both them and the local NHS CCG a fortune.

AnnaMagnani · 14/12/2018 14:26

I would get it because it enables you to be the decision maker about your parent's residence - this doesn't mean money grows on trees, or perfect placements suddenly appear but you have a say and you represent their wishes. It makes things run a lot more smoothly.

You can only make decisions in the best interests of the patient - it doesn't give you carte blanche to do as you please.

I'd also highly recommend it if there is family conflict and one member is much more likely to represent your father than another.

When I wouldn't recommend it, is if you are going to find the emotional cost very burdensome. With end of life decisions, I have had some LPAs really feel like they are making the decision to end their parent's life when they really aren't - the parent is dying anyway and normal medical care is taking place but the fact that they are the LPA and they have to agree to everything makes them feel emotionally wrung out and it wasn't something they had anticipated years back when they just signed a piece of paper.

Redcliff · 16/12/2018 01:01

Thank you everyone for sharing your experience and sorry some of you have had such a difficult time. Will raise it again with my dad soon as I can see how important it is.

OP posts:
New posts on this thread. Refresh page
Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is closed and is no longer accepting replies. Click here to start a new thread.