Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Elderly parents
Original poster

Funding care

29 replies

MrsWobble3 · 08/10/2018 21:56

Does anyone have real life experience of what happens when money runs out? My MIL has dementia and is cared for at home with 24 hour live in carers. As you may imagine this is very expensive and she will run out of money to pay for it (without selling her house) within the next 3 years. What happens at this point? BIL thinks that the council steps in and pays for the care, so she can stay there as long as she wants without having to sell her house or make any changes. This sounds too good to be true - is he right? And if he is, what happens about all the other non-care costs such as groceries, utilities etc. She has no income other than a state pension once her assets have been used to pay for care for the next few years. Will she have to fund those out of her pension? And what happens if it's insufficient for her to continue as she is now with a cleaner and gardener etc?

If anyone has experience of this situation I'd really like to hear it as I'm worried that BIL thinks it will all be fine so sees no need to think about it whereas I can see a massive problem if she is not going to get state funding to continue her life as it is.

OP posts:
Passthecake30 · 08/10/2018 22:01

Does she own her home?

thesandwich · 08/10/2018 22:06

Contact age uk or carers association for advice is she getting attendance allowance? Been assessessed for continuing health care?

Original poster
MrsWobble3 · 08/10/2018 22:16

Thank you for replying. She does own her home. And she does get attendance allowance. We looked at the continuing health care checklists but because most of her needs are social not medical we didn't think she would qualify - is this not correct?

OP posts:
Original poster
MrsWobble3 · 08/10/2018 22:17

We'll contact the organisations you suggest though - thanks for that.

OP posts:
shakeyourcaboose · 08/10/2018 22:19

Unfortunately as far as l am aware local authority won't be able to fund 24 hour live in care at home, but will happily be proven wrong!

Passthecake30 · 08/10/2018 22:22

Age Uk also has some good information.

findingmywaytoday · 08/10/2018 22:25

We're going through something similar. We have been told by social services that provided individual stays at home they cannot touch the house. Further that whilst they will absolutely not fund home care they will once savings go below a certain amount (I'd need to check) that if we're adamant person is to have home care they will have to contribute the cash equivalent of what they would pay if person went into a home once savings dip below a certain point and we will have to top up.

The NHS continuing care thing is a minefield and people are out to protect budgets and will shoot you down even if they have no knowledge of the person - I'm fighting this at the moment and it is exhausting. Have a look at caretobedifferent.co.uk it is a really useful website.

LighthouseSouth · 08/10/2018 22:26

OP when you say her needs are social not medical, what exactly do you mean?

I'm having to look at similar issues but I'm under the impression that you have to sell assets to pay for care. In your mother's case, would equity release be an option, with the bank then taking that part of the money when she's gone?

I thought that sale of assets would be used to fund care in a care home, I don't know if they would ask your mum to move to a flat maybe? I was under the impression council only cover costs once the individual has run out of money and/or assets.

I don't know for sure as I too am looking into this now, but I think your DB is wrong I'm afraid.

Original poster
MrsWobble3 · 08/10/2018 22:27

That's what I thought shakeyourcaboose. But then what actually happens? MIL will still need care so how is it provided if she has no money and the council doesn't pay?

OP posts:
findingmywaytoday · 08/10/2018 22:27

Sorry 1st para is garbled - I need to go to sleep. They have said they will not fund home care in principle, but would be prepared to give cash equivalent once we get to the point where they're obliged to step in because savings have dropped below a certain point.

Original poster
MrsWobble3 · 08/10/2018 22:36

More replies - thank you so much. It's so hard to find this out. Findingmywaytoday - is your experience that she could get part payment, equivalent to what a home might cost which would then need to be topped up, presumably by an equity release loan or similar? If this were not possible, then presumably she would have to move into a home, in which case she could sell her house and self fund for another few years. I can see why the council would prefer this. Is it difficult to persuade the council to let her stay and what arguments have you used?

Lighthouse, her needs are basically being looked after. She has the awareness of a toddler so can't do anything for herself and can't be left unattended but does not need care from an HCP which I understood to be the key requirement for CHC funding. I'd be delighted to be wrong though.

Thanks again for the helpful replies - this is all so difficult.

OP posts:
Passthecake30 · 09/10/2018 13:23

I thought that the Care Act was bringing in rules as to a maximum an individual would need to pay for their care - around £75k. In the case of a care home, fees would be split between Care and rent.
This would be administered differently in different Councils/local authorities.

PurpleWithRed · 09/10/2018 13:28

Definitely speak to Age UK Information and Advice line, but bear in mind that 3 years is quite a long time ahead to be predicting - both in terms of what will be funded then and what your MILs needs will be

As she owns her own home you could look at an equity drawdown on that to continue funding live in carers.

LighthouseSouth · 09/10/2018 13:29

re the needs, I'm afraid I don't know the answer but if she doesn't have capacity, then things like being taken to the bathroom, do they count as social needs? I appreciate they're not medical, but if you had an immediate medical need you would be in a hospital (hopefully)!

so my thought would be that you do need healthcare professionals, if carers count?

MrsPatmore · 09/10/2018 13:33

I think having careers counts as social need. CHC is nursing need.

MotherofTerriers · 09/10/2018 13:37

My understanding is that the LA will pay for up to 4 carer visits a day, but not live in 24 hour care. So they would insist on a move to a care home, which would free up the house for sale and mean they don't have to pay for the home fees
It may vary from LA to LA, and by the time her funds run out her needs may have increased making more funding available. Or the funding rules may have changed. So I wouldn't panic yet, but I would start making enquiries. The Alzheimers Society are helpful and have a forum called Talking Point with a section for funding questions - you'll find a lot of people there who have been in the same situation as you and can give practical advice

Mishappening · 09/10/2018 13:46

caretobedifferent.co.uk - as someone above has also posted. I downloaded their book and got continuing care payments for my Dad: How to get the NHS to pay for Care. You can download it from the link above. I completed my own copy of the assessment forms; and as the assessment proceeded I was able to chip in with my opinion on what the "score" should be. They listened because I had all the facts at my fingertips and they could see it would be pointless to try and bullshit me.

There are thousands of people who qualify for these payments, but do not get them as nurses and others tell them wrongly they do not qualify.

Armchairanarchist · 09/10/2018 13:57

The problem is the money hasn't run out because of the house. We were in the same situation with an aunt. Her care home was £1,000 a week. She had £100,000 in cash when she went in. We knew this would last 2 years. We had to sell her property to carry on paying.

Armchairanarchist · 09/10/2018 14:04

Sorry, I misread that you were paying care home fees.

ZaZathecat · 11/10/2018 08:52

You/she will need to get a 'needs assessment' done by her local social services before her savings get to around £23,000. With savings between £14,000 and 23,000 the local authority may pay part of the care fees, depending on regular income - a financial assessment would be done, following the needs assessment.

When money runs out, local authorities will pay for up to 4 carer visits per day, depending on needs. If this is not sufficient, the person will have to move into Extra Care accommodation or a care home, depending on their needs. Local authorities do not pay for 24 hour care in the home, as a pp said, and the home would have to be sold to pay for the fees. Extra care is for those who cannot manage at home on their own with 4 carer visits, but who don't need a full-on care home. They are usually flatlets in a block with a communal lounge and 24 hour staff. They are much cheaper than care homes but you have to be referred by social services.

Mishappening · 11/10/2018 17:49

Continuing care payments are not based on income or savings - they are completely detached from financial considerations. The assessment is based solely on the person's medical and nursing NEEDS. If she gets continuing care funding no-one can even mention money - it is not relevant.

Mishappening · 11/10/2018 17:50

If someone needs 24 hour care at home it is very unlikely that they would NOT qualify for continuing care funding. Way to go|!!!

Original poster
MrsWobble3 · 11/10/2018 18:10

Thanks Mishappening. From what we have discovered so far MIL is unlikely to qualify for CHC funding because while she needs 24 hour care this is because she is not safe, (she wanders and tries to light the fire etc) not for medical reasons. If you have experience of these factors being taken into account I'd be very interested as she currently seems to be in a position where everyone agrees she needs care from a needs point of view but it doesn't seem to qualify as care from a funding eligibility point of view. As you might imagine this is very frustrating.

OP posts:
Mishappening · 11/10/2018 20:47

My father was similarly unsafe and in need of 24 hour care - he got it. Unfortunately nurses on the ward who do an CCF "assessment" simply have insufficient training in the process. The fact that she is unsafe has a medical source.

Who told you that she did not qualify for this funding? Was a formal assessment done with you present? Until the proper assessment has been done, the decision of non-eligibility cannot be made. Hundreds of people who do qualify are told they do not. You have to be a bit tenacious and for that you need the sort of info that the website and book can give you.

I have no personal interest in the site at all - I know that it just got us what was needed!

findingmywaytoday · 14/10/2018 20:26

@mrswobble3, apologies I've only just seen your query. I'm afraid I'm currently in the midst of my battle so don't have many answers just yet. Other than to say that the second I mention continuing health care, people's backs get up and the hatches tend to come crashing down. Each and everytime I mention it i'm told "she won't get it". For context the social worker was adamant on this and initially refused to undertake a checklist - which they shouldn't do. When the woman turned up, it was painfully obvious she had had zero interation with my MIL's case and knew absolutely nothing about her. MIL "checked in" with flying colours and we're now awaiting a meeting with all health care professionals so I'm collating health records and preparing for that as best I can. Basically rightly or wrongly local authorities want to protect their budgets.

Mishappening's posts are on the money though. Definitely look at the Caretobedifferent website it has been so helpful to me. My mother in law needs 24/7 care for a number of reasons, one of which is to keep her safe.

If we don't get awarded continuing healthcare then, once savings dip below circa £23k then the loal authority will begin to step in but on a tapered basis until they reach circa £14k. WHilst the local authority has said they will not fund staying at home, they have said that they would be prepared to give us the cash equivalent of what they would pay to a care home for us to pay towards keeping MIL at home. This would mean us topping up from our funds / equity release / downsizing etc. Again, if MIL stays in her own home, we have been told by the local authority that they wouldn't be able to touch the house / put a charge on it etc.

If we do get continuing care then the local authority would have to pay even if she stays at home.