Do we force ageing Dad to sell us his house?

[sleepwhenidie]

This should maybe in MHand it is long, sorry, but ...

My Mum left my Dad about 12 years ago after 34 years of marriage. Since then he has been alone and living in the house they shared the entire time. He's a bit of a hoarder and also historically a DIY bodger, so there are numerous issues with the house that he has always grumbled about but in recent months has become obsessed with. His anxiety about it all and inability to physically address any of it has led to a shocking deterioration in his physical and mental health. I saw him in July and again last week and he has aged 20 years (he is 77). He wants to sell the house. Fine we said - lets get a valuation. EA came and immediately offered to buy the house off market for £95k, said he would clear anything he wanted to leave (a mammoth and overwhelming prospect for Dad, or anyone else for that matter). He said that done up the house might fetch £140k.

Dad accepted the offer as he can't face the thought of people traipsing through, long sale process etc. He is convinced that the boiler is going to blow up, the roof is going to collapse due to a leak, that the electrics are dangerous (has stopped using the shower and the heating because of this). Everything is potentially catastrophic. He is in a state of near panic attack pretty much all of the time. I think he is convinced he is dying and doesn't want my sister and I left to deal with the house, but numerous medical tests are all clear. He has had CT scan and is going for endoscopy this week.I am increasingly convinced that the physical deterioration is a direct result of the stress and anxiety and this week we got the doctor to prescribe AD's, which he has just started taking. We have arranged for him to move in to a rented house which isn't a perfect solution but is good for the short term while we wait for SS assessments etc, which have been put in train.

DH and I have cash available to buy and renovate the house. We could then either sell it or rent it out to provide an income towards Dad's rent and care costs going forward. Its a bit of a PITA because he is S Wales and we live in London but we could manage it. We offered this some weeks ago but Dad said no, he wanted to sell it to the other guy.

Dad is adamant he wants to sell the house to the EA (who has chosen not to get a survey done, probably because he's buying at under-value) because he has agreed in writing that there will be no comeback on Dad with any of the problems. But he has continued to panic about what might happen. So now, at the point of exchange, we think it is crazy to sell to this guy at under-value when we could keep the asset in the family and provide him with income in the future.

We stopped the solicitor exchanging this morning. He is very upset with us, he doesn't want us dealing with all the things he sees as disasters in the house. But he won't listen to any kind of reason - mainly that as soon as the house is sold, it will be rewired, new heating etc. He keeps saying things like "if someone switches on the oven it could kill them, the wiring isn't right" even though he acknowledged a minute before that the kitchen will be in a skip on day 1 of renovations! It's very frustrating but I feel like I'm forcing him to sell to us rather than the other guy and causing more stress.

Does anyone have any advice or similar experience?

I completely see your point, and for you to buy probably is the best course of action. But it's his house, and his decision, I'm not sure that you're going to win this one.

There are potentially many issues with this plan due to deprivation of assets, inheritance, capital gains, etc etc. You need to speak to a professional.

He has signed a POA but there's a problem with dates on it or something so it hasn't been rubber stamped.

Older - there are no inheritance tax implications or any capital gains that would concern us (none for him as it is his PPR). I can't see that there's any deprivation of assets either tbh, given that we will pay the same as he's about to get from the 3rd party.

Much as it would be painful to see the property go below value, it might be best for your dad's mental health. It is of course his decision.
Also don't underestimate the work involved in renovating a property, especially since you don't live nearby. That would be a full-time job for you for quite a while and need you on-site unless you employ a project manager, then there is the work of renting it out if you are not already a seasoned landlord.

I think he will accept selling it to us, rather than digging his heels in. But today he's very upset about it.

Was it just the one estate agent who valued the house, or did he call in more than one?

EA sounds totally dodgy to me, and I bet he has his phone on speed dial to his local property developer friend, ready and waiting for nice cheap properties like this.

Selling to this chap and having your dad in rented seems the most hassle free way of sorting this, and all round the best thing for your dads health - and more importantly it’s what your dad wants.

You are vastly underestimating the cost and time required clear out and renovate a house, especially when you’re living in another country.

And by the by but quite honestly I think it’s outrageous that you’ve been allowed to stop the sale with no POA in place.

Your Dad is clearly suffering with stress and anxiety, but from everything you have written it sounds like he knows what he wants to do and still has capacity to make decisions, so POA at this point is irrelevant, and you need to respect his wishes.

How did you stop the solicitor exchanging this morning? I'm confused as to why your Dad's solicitor is taking instructions from you.

stripes - just one get. Yes obviously dodgy. It is his builder mate who is the official buyer.

When Dad went to the solicitors with my Aunty (who lives closer and has been helping him through all this - lots of time and effort) on Friday to sign the papers to exchange, he turned around and said 'I only wanted to get a valuation and get the heating sorted'. It totally looked as if he'd been coerced into selling, which absolutely hasn't been the case. Solicitor said he didn't have to exchange right then and that he should take a few days - she was waiting for the redemption figure on his mortgage so couldn't actually do it that day anyway. So technically we haven't stopped the sale, but we have put exchange on hold. I honestly don't think he is mentally well enough to make a rational decision about this.

We also have a sneaking suspicion that he sometimes would like to stay there. When I saw him last week he was procrastinating again about moving to the rented place, complaining about the location compared to where he is now (he signed the tenancy 6 weeks ago yet shows no sign of moving) I suggested he move out temporarily, let us pay for and manage a complete renovation, get the physical aids installed (a stair lift looks inevitable, bathroom rails etc would also be required) and then he could move back in. He looked very tempted but then said that he would still worry about the roof leaking. I am hoping that once AD's kick in he will relax about these issues. At which point he may decide he wants to go back there, who knows. If he did want that then he could still do that. The point of selling quickly is to stop him stressing..but none of us who interact with him now believe that will happen, no matter who he sells it to. So we want to act in his best financial interest...

on the renovation - yes we have managed renovations before and would put a project manager in place. We are also used to renting gout properties, if that is what looks like best course of action.

the best thing overall would be to keep the house in his name and renovate it and rent it out, which we would be happy to do. This would leave him in a much better position re care fees etc.

I'm afraid your dad is at the silly bugger stage of his life and that is very hard to deal with. He is leaning on you all the time yet keen to do his own thing and assert himself, but you have to deal with the fallout.

I wouldn't rush into a house sale. Unless I missed something, where is he going to live afterwards? Oh, a rented place. Right, not much stuff to move has he? You say he's a hoarder, where is all that stuff going.

It sounds like he is thinking, once I move, I can jettison my past problems. I do think you should sort out his gaffe, certainly get a skip if nec and get rid of all his junk, make it look nice then have a rethink. It may indeed be getting on top of him and he may want to move somewhere smaller, but if the Council put him up to this it's to free up capital to use on a care home at a future date.

He may well be entitled to,renovation grants especially if he is going to stay there.

Yes, keeping things on hold and doing it up would be best..need to either convince him or exercise POA that is being finalised - neither will be easy. Thanks Holey, I’ll look into that.

I’m sorry to say this sounds exactly like my grandmother was in the early stages of Alzheimer’s.

I've only just seen this

I think there's a lot of sense in letting the ADs kick in before he makes any kind of decision at all. I've seen this happen when my dad was around the same age and the panic and anxiety that can accompany a sudden decline shouldn't be underestimated.

I'm a bit unclear how you stopped the sale as you don't have POA but hopefully your dad will see things a bit more clearly when medication has kicked in.

It sounds like he wants to sell up because he think he can't cope with the place any more - he might feel so much more himself again after ADs, he might not want to sell at all.

EA sounds dodgy to me. Does his employer know he is behaving in this way? It is most unprofessional to make a cheeky offer on houses that are supposed to be going onto the EA books. If he has a builder mate sounds like he could be doing this on the sly and ripping off older and more vulnerable people.

EA sounds dodgy, are they allowed to do that?
I'd explain to him how much the house is worth, but would you be prepared to do the work to get it up to it's value.

Thanks - we are hoping the AD's kick in soon, he really is in a dreadful state. MayDay I am worried that might be what is going on. His mum, my nan, had Alzheimers for years. He is being assessed by SS today, POA takes effect this week (he was at least aware enough to ask several weeks ago for it to be put in place). I am really hoping that SS put him straight into temporary care as I think that is what he needs right now. Decision re house is on hold.

Romany I don't think EA's are allowed to do that, no. Re value, he keeps saying he isn't interested in the financial aspects, he just wants to be rid of the house. Which would be fair enough if he wasn't being irrational about the reasons why. We are prepared to manage everything and invest the money for necessary improvements. He may need care for a decade or more, it makes no sense to dispose of an asset that could finance it for however long he needs it to, rather than selling it for a finite pot of funds.

EAs may not be allowed to do this, but it happens all the time. Twenty years ago, when I owned a flat in London that had been let for 10 years, I asked the letting agency I had used for a sale valuation and they came back with a valuation that was 30% below market value because the EA judged I was a batty old crone living in the country and would not know better. But I asked five agents the same question, and the rest all gave valuations that were £40k higher. You cannot rely on a single opinion imo.

What happened in the end? Reading your post and update, you didn't stop the sale, Dad indicated he felt rushed/ coerced into it to his solicitor.

If your dad has capacity then he can decide but part of MCA2005 to help someone make decisions where possible, is ensuring he has 'practicable support' & independent advice. In this situation for eg ask 2 other EAs in to value it, give dad all the options and support to talk through with independent financial advice or solicitor and maybe even an independent advocate.

Dad didn't know he had option of selling it within family and now he does so that's important for him to consider IF for same amount (obviously less would look dodgy as deprivation of assett) and if he feels reassured that you're up to the task of project managing it as that seems to be a worry of his.

He has a solicitor for sale so that's best route to go, give solicitor the options to help dad consider it fully and respect his decision. If dad doesn't have capacity then legally solicitor won't let him sign to sell it! Then it's about waiting for LPA to be granted and then taking his views into account when making best interests decision but sale goes on hold until legal authority in place.

Interested to find out what route dad chose if he was able to...

OP - the devil is all in the detail / numbers when it comes to renovation and renting out as a landlord. I've built 2 houses and am a landlady. The taxation/stamp on second home owner's is high. Running costs (council tax), ongoing repairs / deep cleaning g can be high coupled with long vacated periods and agent fees. Once you've done a really detailed plan of everything ...I'd be amazed if you net an income greater than 5% on your investment for a lot of blood, sweat and tears from afar - nevermind start to recoupe your refurb budget and have money for care home fees. I think your plan sounds dicey.
Care homes are £500-£700 per week. There is no way on earth you are going to net profit to cover that!
A better plan is to sell....potentially at auction for a hassle free quick sale and simply drawdown the proceeds to pay for care.
As a separate issue, I don't see that the house is actually yours to sell. It's your dads and I can understand his burning desire to move on from It completely. You are making this problematic.