Fil has two options; a carer or a care home

[MsAdorabelleDearheartVonLipwig]

And he won't let the carer in the bloody house.

He has had a depression diagnosis. He has paranoid delusions and dementia-like behaviour. He won't take medication. He cannot look after himself and doesn't trust anyone. We arranged for a carer to help him with housework and cooking and he wouldn't let her in.

Ffs. His social worker is as fed up as we are. Can she force him to go into a care home? I have no idea how it works.

Obviously no one is forcing anything on him against his will but I personally don't think he has the mental capacity to make an informed decision.

He's here now, I picked him up and brought him over for dinner. DBil has phoned to talk to him about the carer and he's swearing and shouting and getting angry. And now I've got to drive him all the way home all by myself. Lovely.

I may be sounding harsh but I think I would step back and let the inevitable crisis happen . The fact you are cleaning up after him ( is social work team visit place looks managed ) making sure he is coming to you once a week for a good home cooked meal ( amazing how long someone can stay healthy on just that ) and generally trying your best to look after him is making social services think he is being looked after so they don't have to worry so much .

Resources are ridiculously scarce and sadly if they think he can go to the bottom of the pile till the next visit then that is what will happen .

Good luck I know it can be a nightmare .

I think that's certainly a problem; family and friends do so much to help him, social services probably think he's in safe hands. He has a couple of friends that go and do odd jobs for him. We feed him twice a week. We all poo in with shopping. The care workers take him to hospital. They probably think he's getting on just fine.

Poo in. God, I meant pop in.

Just one more thing re the CHC. Dad got it when living at home but requiring all day carers for his own safety (and arguably that of the public) due to self neglect and wandering. He had some physical problems, with him it revolved around poorly controlled diabetes and the interaction of blood sugars and aggression, necessitating regular medication. I'm certainly not saying getting CHC is a doddle, but it is not impossible either.

And CHC is not means tested. He could win the euro millions and still get CHC if he fulfilled the criteria.

Poor you, it's such hard work - we have a relative with no mental issues, just mobility and he's very helpful and 'good' (for want of a better word) about it and it's still tricky. I can't imagine how hard it must be helping somebody who doesn't want to be helped

Re the not letting carers in, could you get a key safe put up so they can let themselves in? I know he might be difficult but if they can actually get in he might just let them get on with it.

I think, awful as it sounds, you're going to have to wait until he falls or something and ends up in hospital.

Going back to what Chris1234567890 said about PoA.

I don't agree.

You will need PoA should he go into hospital. Trust me, they want to know if you have it you come into conflict or disagreement over a medical operation. We found out about this too late; the consultant wanted to put a PEG feeding tube in our mum's stomach, we didn't. So, they want to know if we have PoA. When the manager found out we didn't she got all frisky. It means we had reduced power.

If you don't have it, they act as if you don't have it because of some wrongdoing on your part, as if you have forfeited it.

Re DOLS, yes, this applies in a care home situation. It is not true that once they put that through, someone has to be their representative, and that person will be you. Maybe it ought to be true. But it isn't.

One care home rushed through DOLS against us after spurious safeguarding concerns were raised. No mention of RPR has ever been made to us by Social Services. It is almost certain that DOLS has been invoked by her current care home. No one has ever mentioned RPR and all this is news to me. I'm not saying Chris1234567890 is technically wrong. I am saying, Social Services just make up the rules as they please. How are you going to argue with them? By complaining, of course. And who do you complain to? To Social Services! And they can take six months to carefully consider your complaint. Only then can you take it to the Ombudsman.

No solicitor has ever ever mentioned that if you have RPR you can see the medical notes. Never.

Likewise, some will tell you that you can get PoA retrospectively after your relative has lost mental capacity. Hogwash. You cannot. Such a thing as deputyship exists, and it is very very hard to get, and only granted in extreme cases. We have been told this a number of times, yet someone from Age Concern will happily [mis]inform me, oh, you can get it after the fact don't you know, here is the number of a solicitor who can help you out. Phoned her, nice lady, not a sausage. Very hard to do, she said, extremely expensive.

It's all very well having these rules under the Care Act. Local councils can defy them with well practiced immunity. Then, trust me, you have a fight on your hands. Legal battles, the lot, when you are under enough stress. It will cost you.

If there is one thing I wish we'd done while we could, it is to get PoA in Health and Welfare, and Finance of course (but we got that).

Not sure why Chris1234567890 would actually want to talk anyone out of that.

Can I ask a question from a different point of view. Does he go to any neighbours for anything ?
The reason I ask this is my neighbour and my family have endured 3 years of hell with another neighbour who has dementia and lived on her own. In the end she caused our lives to be a misery. She would be calling on us all times and then wouldn't go home which was worrying as we live on a very busy main road. One day she stood in the middle of the road and wouldn't move even for the police. When the policeman spoke to her son who lives 10 minutes by car he wouldn't come. We wished we had spoken to the social worker ourselves because her family didn't care when we told them what she was doing. She has been in hospital for the last 2 weeks and then she will be going into a care home. My neighbour and my family feel at last the burden on us has been lifted and now we can live again whish is sad to say but when you don't want to open your front door, go out the street for anything and strangers knock on your door to ask should she be in the street on her own. We have all been neighbours for over 30 years.

No he won't trouble the neighbours. He thinks they want to kill him. He only has the one set of neighbours, the next house is half a mile away.

That's a bit worrying about the POA after he's lost capacity. He just won't sign the forms. He thinks he's signing all his money away and the mean bastard in him doesn't want to let that happen. Not that he's capable of spending it now. We've got them with us, we need to read them again. You need witnesses too.

He got sectioned yesterday. He was having a review with some doctors at the insistence of his poor social worker, she tries so hard but they're just so limited. They did say that they weren't happy with his condition and called for an ambulance to take him to the mental hospital. I expect they'll send him home again in a week or two.

Unfortunately if he's been sectioned then by definition he doesn't have capacity. However capacity can fluctuate, you might still be able to "strike while the iron is hot" if he gets better at a later date (but someone would have to countersign the POA that he does have capacity, such as a GP, vicar etc).
Fiverabbits your story is sad and shocking. The old lady's family are in my view contemptible. I can't help suspect they didn't want her in a home because it would have eaten into their inheritance, and they couldn't be bothered helping. It's too late now but in that kind of situation concerned neighbours should contact social services and mention key phrases such as "vulnerable adult". I don't underestimate the stress you and your neighbours would have been under. Before he got ill my dad was supporting an old lady whose family couldn't be bothered.

Hi newspaper, it's very important I address your post. It sounds like you've been through the mill and your situation, of withheld information, is very common. But please don't feel I am attacking you. I'm absolutely not but there is a lot of confusion in your post that needs clarifying.

Firstly, DoLs only applies where an individual is 'lacking capacity' AND they are restrained within either a care OR hospital environment. My first question to you, and one which may may have caused some of your issues, was your parent assessed as 'lacking capacity'?

This is very very different say to someone being brought in unconscious from say a motorcycle accident, or some other form of medical emergency. This is very different to disputing medical procedures. Say you are a Jehovas Witness, its absolutely vital your wishes are recorded legally in the event of an emergency 'incapacity' (for want of a better phrase). You are absolutely right that a PoA gives you legal rights to represent the individual. I would absolutely agree that in an ideal world, everyone should have a PoA in place for both health and finance.

However, the OP was in that twilight zone, clearly lacking capacity though not officially assessed as such, with no PoAs in place. Hence its important to understand that regards health and welfare, all is not lost when a PoA doesn't exist.

DoLs is only legal when an RPR has been assigned. If your parent is in care under DoLs (that will be a secure unit with locked doors that she cannot leave at will) the DoLs under which she's restrained MUST have an RPR.

In short if no relative is available or willing to act as an RPR, or the assessor believes a relative is unsuitable (I.e lives 200 miles away) they must inform the Independant Mental Health Advocacy Service (IMHA) who will act in the RPR role. Either way, a DoLs is not legal without one.

Ive attached a link for my local authorities guidelines on all this which will help explain it better in full. But in short, anyone detained under DoLs must have an RPR. That RPR has every right to see all medical records, be involved in all medical, welfare and care decisions.

Just one other point in your post, if s PoA doesn't exist (for either health or finance) then yes you can apply 'retrospectively'. This is done through the court of protection. It will cost you £400 for each one (health and welfare being separate from finance) but is easily instigated online. It may take several months to resolve but is absolutely available to all. So again, whilst ideally PoA s should be set up in advance, (cheaper and easier with consent) if they're not, the option is there via the court of protection.

http://www.knowsley.gov.uk/pdf/DHguideforrrelevantrepresentatives.pdf

Hi Chris, sorry if I sound snarky, such snarkiness should be addressed to those who've put us in this situation, except then it is termed 'abuse' and they can stop us visiting our mum. You'll probably say this is illegal and you'll probably be right, but by the time we've gone to court to argue that our mum will be dead, and as on her records it says 'end-stage Parkinson's' it would be a case of good luck proving its down to their neglect.

We have had DOLS taken out on our Mum, fast-tracked, at a previous home. No mention of RPR. As stated, DOLS has certainly been taken out on her at her current home. No mention of RPR. If that is illegal that is very interesting, so thanks. But honestly, in all our talks with solicitors, Parky's UK, Age Concern, the Information Commissioner's Office, GPs, et al, nobody has ever mentioned this to us.

It may be 'illegal' to have DOLS without an RPR but really care homes and social workers can actually do what they want.

However, having PoA to me is like Tokein's Ring or Dororthy's Ruby Slippers, you can just wave it at the relevant authorities or give them a kicking, and they have to retreat.

Of course, it may be a smokescreen on their part 'Pretend PoA is what it is all about, then they will feel thwarted...' Even if you have PoA, often others don't know the law and think they can stymie you.

DOLS doesn't apply when there is a lock down situation. You make it sound like Broadmoor. It is not, we are talking a normal care home where you punch in a code to enter. It applies whenever you have someone who has lost mental capacity ie advanced Parkinson's with Parkinson's dementia, that sort of thing. They are not being straitjackedted. It is to stp them wandering off.

You then say:
"Just one other point in your post, if s PoA doesn't exist (for either health or finance) then yes you can apply 'retrospectively'."

NO YOU CAN NOT.

Please don't put this stuff about, it is thoroughly misleading. We have asked about this time and again, if only it was this simple. Only in the rarest of hen's teeth of a hen laying golden eggs is this allowed. The last solicitor I spoke to about this, who specialises in elderly care, put me straight on this, after I bought into this idea from a kindly old gent handing out flyers for Age Concern. How I would love this to be true, that you can get PoA retrospectively. It is called Deputyship. It is hardly ever granted, it is expensive, it is a pain in the arse, it won't be granted.

Now, you may say otherwise. And one of us is right, one of us is wrong.

But I do find it odd that you are strongly advocating someone NOT get PoA in Health and Welfare and/or Finance.

And, if you're right and I'm wrong, fine, no problem. But if I'm right and you're wrong, the OP has a problem. A big problem.

Sorry, would edit but can't so

"DOLS doesn't apply when there is a lock down situation. You make it sound like Broadmoor. It is not, we are talking a normal care home where you punch in a code to enter. " should read "DOLS doesn't apply ONLY when there is a lock down situation."

Hi newspaper, firstly I am absolutely sympathetic to your situation and I think we may be able to find where you feel conflicting information is coming from.

Can I just say I am absolutely NOT strongly advocating don't get a PoA!!! I agree wholeheartedly get them get them get them!!!

I'm referring to the OP and others, who commonly find themselves in these situations, usually after some crisis has happened, without a PoA in place.
Care homes, social services and hospitals cannot act with impunity. They cannot disregard the MH Act 2005, though often they do, and yes, as I've said in my earlier posts, they are very poor at notifying family members of their rights.

If your mother is being cared for in an EMI care home (which is what it sounds like) under a DoLs authorisation, ring them now, this very minute, and ask who your mothers RPR is. If they cannot or will not answer that question, ask who the Best Interest Assessor is who authorised her DoLs and ask for their name and contact details.
Also ask the home, that the DoLs is available for you to see on your next visit. It must be kept where your mother is. If she does wander, the home needs to show it to the police or whoever, to have her returned.

Contact the Best interests assessor and ask them, who your mothers RPR is. Do all this today.

If you are stonewalled in any way, come back, I will in the meantime try to pull together a list of contact numbers for the Independant Mental Capacity Advocacy service for you to find an advisor in your area. (I called them by their wrong name in an earlier post, apologies) These people are awesome. They are the knights in shining armour who will assist you.

We do have to disagree on our views re applying to the Court of protection in had event of no PoA being in place . It is very commonly used, and indeed, is the ONLY route available for either families or SS to gain access or control over an incapacitated persons estate. It's is not rare or only used in extremes, you either have PoA, OR deputy ship (as you've correctly called it) via the Cof P. PoA is the cheaper easier route, done with consent of the individual, but if that ship has sailed, it has to be the CofP route. But it's certainly not rare or particularly difficult and I'll try and find more links for that.

Apols to the OP for this derailment xx

I will certainly look into you links regarding RPR.

As for PoA, it may be more likely to get it re Finance. Not in Health and Welfare, not in my experience.

As for care providers not being able to act with impunity... really that should read, should not be able to act with impunity. Fact is, they can. I mean, look at Merok Park in Surrey. Made headlines a year and a half ago. Shut down by CQC. No one held to account by it. No one. Now can we really say that the elderly residents there lived out their natural lifespan? Personally I doubt it.

However, should someone pitch up at hospital dehydrated and underweight, the hospital will not report it to Social Services. Now why do you suppose? Because dead residents = care home vacancies, so less bed blocking on the NHS? Surely not.

The coroner will rule nothing amiss. Why? Because death thru dehydration or malnourishment counts for nothing. Why? Because someone who has a long-term illness like Parkinson's or Dementia often go off their food latterly anyway, and on the food and fluid chart the words 'Refused' are written, suggesting it's not the carer's fault they got nothing to eat. The coroner goes by that.

The bar is set very high for prosecutions. It has to be, otherwise you would not get people setting up private care homes. It would prove too costly. Good luck proving anything, and good luck further without PoA in Health and Welfare. Though you suggest that you can have that as an RPR, that only applies if you have DOLS which wouldn't work in the OP's situation of course, as they are not in a home.

We have been asking Social Services to be accountable for their behaviour. They have made it clear they are not. Who do we complain to about this? Social Services. They have it sewn up.

We have complained to the CQC. They are equally useless, though possibly less vindictive.

But we agree - get PoA before the fact wherever you can, as imo there is no after.

Newspaper, I popped back to pop a link on re local Independant mental capacity advocacy services. I do totally understand how you feel. I do totally agree that elderly care can be appalling. But it's why it's so important that families know their rights in situations like this, before finding themselves being railroaded prematurely out of hospital beds, without correct processes and safeguards having been met. Apologies after the fact are pointless.

You and your mother have rights. Irrespective of PoAs. Here's the list of local advocacy services near you, do ring them, they do offer fabulous support.

www.scie.org.uk/publications/imca/files/imca_providers.pdf

OP, in a way, what a relief they've sectioned your fil. He is, for the time being, 'owned' now by the NHS. Yes, agree 'capacity' can fluctuate, and there may be a window of opportunity to try again for a PoA, at a later date. Personally I'd let BiL drive that if he wishes, having PoA can be a pain in the jacksy. It certainly isn't an open cheque book, do as you please. But glad to read he is now getting the MH care he clearly needs.

Whataboutbob

You are right about the inheritance. I spoke to the daughter-in-law last night and she said her mother-in-law had gone into her permanent care home and her and her husband are moving into her bungalow. No mention of thanks for all the time and help you and the other neighbour gave whilst we lived only 10 minutes away. I don't know how I kept quiet and not say it's funny how you can move in now but couldn't when the neighbour really did need 24 hour care. The neighbour was 89 years old so should she have been living on her own even without the dementia. She had 2 sons who lived 10 minutes away and 1 son and 1 daughter who lived 3 hours away. On son wouldn't come, the daughter used to come for 3 weeks a year but didn't stay with her mother even though she had room and of the 2 who lived local, one was always in work and the other one wouldn't come. Then she had 6 grandchildren but they didn't visit either.

How can they live in her house when it will probably end up having to be sold to pay for her care?

MsAdorabelle

I've no idea but they are renting their house out to one of their daughters but I can't imagine it will be enough to pay care home fees.

Sounds dodgy to me.

Just a quick update.

Fil got sent home after a couple of weeks. He sounded great on the phone. Two days of being at home and he was back to being miserable.

Anyway. He fell down the stairs a couple of weeks ago. Fractured his neck. Had a heart attack in hospital. Is now in intensive care in an induced coma and the doctors can't rouse him out of it. Brain function not responding right. Talking about what's in his best interests, I guess that means whether to resuscitate or not.

All because he didn't tell anyone that the stair light had blown. Tried to make his way up the stairs in the dark.

If he'd still been in the psychiatric unit and allowed to get better before they shipped him off home, he might not be in this mess.

Sorry to hear about your FiL. If only people listened to the family.

My mother's PoA was gained after she lost capacity. The safeguards are a joke.
Going through the CoP now, a bigger joke. But no one is laughing.

Oh goodness OP, what a stressful situation and such a horrible conclusion I hope your DH and his brother can make a decision they agree and feel comfortable with :(

We need POA now more than ever. If he does pull through and needs round the clock care we need to be able to access funds. We definitely can't pay for it and he's loaded.

Bloody nightmare.