Power of Attorney - Best Avoided?

[Davros]

My mother, who is nearly 88, is currently in the rehab unit of a hospital. However, as she refuses to cooperate with any treatment, they have said she must move on, either back home or somewhere else. This is nothing new, she has spent her life being inactive, passive and downright lazy. She seriously seems to think that she can lie there for a few weeks, then go home with free carers and my DSis, who lives nearby, waiting on her hand and foot. My question is, should my DSis and I embrace POA or is it better to avoid? We both have other people to consider, my DSis has a DD just starting Uni and her DH had a stroke some years ago and is still rather disabled, she also works 4 days a week. I have a 20 year old DS who is severely autistic and in residential, my DH has Parkinsons and I have a 12 year old DD and I live an hour's drive away. Would our lives be easier or harder with or without POA?

DM had this for her DB and it did make things easier, as she could take care of his financial affairs for him (he'd had a stroke). After she died, I took it over, and on several occasions I had social services severely pressuring me to have him come and live with me, despite us living in completely different counties. I would have been completely unable to have him living with me for various reasons (including me working full-time), and in the end I handed POA over to a solicitor.

I have poa for my mum who is currently is hospital. She has dementia and was hospitalised with a UTI.
Her quality of life in her flat is awful. Social worker arranged about a year ago for carers to go in three times a day. This is no longer enough. Both the hospital staff and I agree she needs a residential home. Carers disagree. I had a full on argument with the original social worker last week about it.
The POA meant I was able to turn around and say 'I have made my decision, the staff agree with me, that's the end of it'.

I would recommend both for finance and the health POA's.

My mum has no dementia at all. I am worried that DSis and I will be seen as the easy option for managing everything and taking all the responsibility. Need to give it very careful thought

It's not up to you to choose poa, it has to be granted to you while your dm has capacity and then only comes into force when she loses capacity.

Having poa does not mean you have to personally look after the person, it gives you the legal right to make decisions on their behalf.

I think it's a very good question and many of the us on the "responsibility for elderly parents" thread have POA and know it can be a bit of a double edged sword. The negatives are you will get drawn in to sort out a potentially very large number of issues, depending on your parent's affairs. If there is property, investments etc then that can mean a considerable amount of work. In my case I have POA for financial affairs (but not for health and welfare) for my Dad who has Alzheimers . I have had to register with his various banks, I make all payments to his carers, I manage his 2 rental properties, i manage his home and any work that needs doing on it and make sure tradesmen are paid etc. Realistically, there's no one else around willing or suitable to do it so it had to be me. Without POA, all of this would have been taken over by the court of protection/ social services. They would have made sure care homes/ carers were paid but would probably not have had a mind to make the best of his assets. This touches on a sensitive and I find somewhat taboo subject: inheritance. After putting in years of care for my Dad I frankly do hope to inherit something one day. And so I manage his assets primarily in his best interests, but also with a view to making the money last if at all possible. So the positive of POA is you have control and can make the decisions, which is especially important if your parent has lost capacity. However it does mean you may have a lot of work on your plate, potentially for years and years. You can't usually pay yourself a salary out of the assets, you need to keep careful records of expenditure and you could be audited.

Hmmmm. Thanks for the responses. She does have capacity and seems likely to for the (short) foreseeable future but she can't physically go anywhere and has never been good at organising her affairs. So maybe it's a question for if/when she loses capacity and I was thinking of someone having POA, just not necessarily me and/or DSis, possibly soc svs guardian. But I really hear the points about making decisions to maximise assets and choose the best options, not the easiest.

What does your mum want?

Good question! She says she wants to go home but she is doing nothing towards that happening, quite the opposite. She thinks her back pain is going to miraculously get better without any effort. I can't see it happening and she has now been classified as needing nursing, although I was clearly told only last Tuesday that she did not need nursing input! She has become so helpless and dependent that she would rather lie in bed than try to keep minimal mobility in order to go home. I spoke to the staff nurse today who is completely flabbergasted as she has never encountered someone so uncooperative but who is not demented or depressed, she described her as "very content"! Btw, I thought POA was for those with capacity and Deputyship for those without, that is what I undershood from having a disabled DS.

POA needs to be granted by someone who still has capacity but in practice i suspect is most often deployed to deal with situations when someone no longer has capacity. So there is a window , if it looks say like someone is losing their memory, wherein you can get them to sign and the signature certifier (in practice a GP, psychogeriatrician or a person who knows them well) is happy to state they think the person understands what they are signing. Past a certain point of mental decline their signature is no longer valid.

And then you would indeed need to go for deputyship, which I gather is a lot more form filling, giving evidence of expenditure and all round hassle.

If your mum still has capacity then there is no need for a poa, she will make her own decisions. She needs to grant a poa while she has capacity, so that when the tone comes the poa is activated. I have poa for my mum, but she is fit and well. When/if she loses capacity the poa will be activated.

She can make decisions .... In theory. But she can't do anything about putting them into action.

Late post, but get a POA. It does not come into effect until she loses capacity, so the conversation should be about "what ifs", eg what if she had a stroke. You should find that hospital staff/Social Services will be happy to support. A POA makes things simpler for them as well.

You should then have a realistic talk with your sister about who does what. A single financial POA, with the other as alternate is much easier for the financial stuff. Banks prefer it, and then one of you can have all correspondence sent to them and. with internet banking, it really is not too bad. (Or at least, as in my case, once the mess was sorted out.) The Health and Welfare is less onorous time wise, and probably best to hold jointly. I hold it singly but would not want to make big decisions on recussitation etc, without my brother being in agreement. Regardless of paperwork, DM is his mother as well, and I would want his support.

It then depends how many assets there are. I think it is reasonably simple to recharge expenses under a POA, but you need to check. My view was that this was important. I did the vast majority of the visiting when my father was ill, which had a significant impact on the family budget. Not fair, given that my brother was unable to do his share because he was busy earning a huge City salary. It seems mean to charge your parents, but similarly your family should not have to pick up the burden. If affairs are straightforward and you and your sister are in agreement you can do the POA yourself and get someone like GP or Vicar to witness. And contradicting Bob, you are allowed to charge an income if it is within the POA. I can, but don't, though I charge standard management fees for managing my mother's property interests.

If there are sufficient assets to enable this I would strongly advise that you get a solicitor to draft the POA and advise on what is reasonable. Its pretty shark infested water, as you could be accused of taking advantage of your mother's assets (a criminal offense), avoiding inheritance tax, and "deliberate deprivation of assets". Even though if I were to charge it would be far cheaper than the £250.00 per hour that the solicitor would have charged had her suggestion of being Attorney been taken up. (And mini rant - part of the mess was sorting out the remains of my fathers affairs including closing bank accounts despite this very expensive solicitor being in charge of probate three years previously.) My suggestion would be that if your mother is willing to grant a POA you go together, seek advice from the solicitor and agree details between you.

Thanks for this very useful info. I will discuss with DSis. However, things have changed a little, certainly in my attitude towards helping her. I have just found out that she cut me out of her will years ago and has never told me! My DSis couldn't let me carry on trying to do my best for DM without me knowing. She has divided everything between the aforementioned DSis and our other (not D) sis who lives abroad, does nothing for her but has always been her favourite. I am very upset at her deceiving me while taking advantage of me. I have not confronted her yet

Oh Davros....

You are not alone in having a tricky relationship, or perhaps just a tricky mother. In my case the will was drawn up by both parents, and by the time my father died my mother's dementia had progressed to far for her to organise changing it. She has certainly threatened often enough.

I found some very hurtful correspondence from the solicitor, recording my mother's views about me and why I woud not make a suitable Attorney. Which is why the solicitor was suggesting her firm should be Attorney, though again my mother's dementia meant that she failed to keep appointments, so nothing happened.

It is good of you DSis to tell you. To be honest part of the reason I have picked up the mantel is that I want to break the cycle of fractured family relationships and to set an example to my children. There is a real satisfaction in knowing you rose to the challenge and did the right thing, especially when there was every reason not to.

One thing you might discuss with your sister is the scope to alter the will within a certain period after death. I don't know the detail, but understand that we could elect to have the inheritance from my mother pass directly to our children. If my mother lives for another decade, as predicted, this might make sense for us. Ditto your two DSis' could right the wrong done to you by your mother. I assume that the UK based one might favour your help and support in the short term over a full inheritance in the longer.

Or if your mother still has capacity, which it sounds as if she does, she could confront her and say she is not happy with the arrangements and the assumption that she bears the full care burden and ask your mother to consider revising her Will. You then do the POA at the same time.

Thanks for the kind words and good advice. I'm still processing the whole thing, seeing her on Saturday and currently planning to tell her that I know without going into a rant. What you say about continuing to "do the right thing" has made an impression on me. I don't think I can shun her, I feel that would be ridiculous, but DSis and I are aware that we are both over accepting of her behaviour in all sorts of areas. I don't want to let her off the hook but can't live my life, and be an example to my DD, if I have a vendetta.

I would ask her. Not aggressively or emotionally but just "Mum I understand you've cut me out of your will. It's your will and you can do whatever you wish but I would really like to understand this to help us move on with our relationship. Could you explain it to me?"

Ask whilst you can. My good friend had this happen to her and she received £1,000 whilst her DB took a £3m estate. She didn't know until after her DM's death and she is struggling to come to terms with it.

It's not the money, not that I'd say no! But I thought I had the best relationship with her out of the three of us and I feel that I've been deceived. I've also been through a lot over the tears with disabled DS, having cancer myself and DH now Dx with Parkinson's and I feel that she hasn't cared about anything that was happening to me over those years

That is shocking.

Difficult mothers are not unusual. My cousin's theory is that it is a generational thing. Your mother and mine had Victorian parents, lived through the war, had a reduced choice of husbands, probably had education but were not allowed to pursue a career, and were expected to run the house and look after the children without help. And that the resulting anger has spread out into their relationships with daughters in a toxic way.

Possibly not correct but it helps.

I would tackle the issue as part of a conversation about "the future". Your mother seems to have happily allowed you to support her, despite knowing how spiteful she has been. So talk about a POA. Say that you know that you are not in the Will and ask whether this implies that she does not want your involvement and that she is looking to your other sisters to provide support. Your local DSis should be quite clear she does not expect to carry the burden single handedly. So POA and new Will. Or a POA that has you able to charge for your time. If she does not see you as a daughter that sounds blunt but this is what her approach seems to say) you should be compensated for your time. As Bob suggests, at the back of my mind part of the reason to do what I am doing is to preserve the inheritance. Believe me it is irritating enough to know that the tax man gets 40% and DB gets 30% of any increase in value. Knowing that the results of any prudent management of her assets will got to your sister overseas, and none to you would be unsustainable.

Hi Davros NMS has made some very constructive advice. My perspective is that if she is disinheriting you then that absolves you from a lot of burdensone obligations and duties, and you should only do what you feel you can manage, but not go the extra mile.It's a good idea to double check that that is ndeed the case. I now that could be tricky if she' s playing games, or her memory is faulty. I believe that legally you couldn't say go to the soliciotr and ask to see a copy.
My grandparets left everything equally to my brother and me, and my father's will is also 50:50. This is despite the fact that bro has serious mental illness, and did not lift a finger to help the grandparetns when they were frail. He does however live with our father who has dementia and I do not at all begrudge him getting 1/2, even though I always do all the legwork with probate etc. I believe my grandparents were sending a message that he is as valued as me, and I respect that. So to disinherit a child is in my view an aggressive act and I totally understand you may want to review your involvement in the light of that fact.

Generally, it's a case of always getting PoA in Health and Welfare if you want any say on your relative's health in the face of arrogant consultants, wicked social workers and dissembling GPs, but having read Davros' account of a difficult mother who has cut her out of the will, that does alter things a bit!

What if you get it, then can delegate or hand it over to someone else for a stint, like a year or so? Is that possible? Surely with finance it is.

Looks like it's a case of doing what offers less stress in the long term. What if she changes her mind back about the will? Will then getting PoA in Finance mean you get a heads up if she switches back to cutting you out of the will again?

I can tell you horror stories about what happens if you don't have PoA in H&W and what social workers, care homes and consultants can do, they can really turn you over and imo there is a whiff of corruption about them. It's about the money for them, I can assure you. But I struggle to advise in this instance when you don't appear to have a vested interest in either her money or her longevity (not without good reason, I hasten to add, if your account is anything to go by).

You can't get POA for someone who is sane, however useless they are.

Sorry, I don't follow.. The person does have to grant you PoA and it can only be done if they have mental capacity so it is all for future ref anyway. True, you can't get it and then proceed to exercise it simply if they are a bit nuts or eccentric if this is what you mean.

We have financial and health POA. MIL didn't want to manage finances nor really know about it so we sorted it out. Health won't come into being until she is not able to make decisions. She is another who is quite content to gave family running about and barking orders. You aren't allowed to go for a chat. You get jobs. This is despite carers going in. She won't do anything to help her mobility either. Even the small things are emergencies and if not done she starts phoning you all the time.