I am deliberately not namechanging. This is ugly. Or going to be. (Division of assets after my parents pass away)

[QuintessentialShadows]

I dont know where to start.
I am in my parental home for Easter, back in Norway.
My sister just left.
My father is wealthy. He lives alone, is disabled, mum is in a nursing home due to dementia.

It turns out that, it seems that my sister is plotting to get this house.

I told her in Christmas that long term, me and dh would not be opposed to moving back here and taking over the house. It is old, big, ramshackle, on three floors, many rooms, very awkward, and cost a fortune in bills. But it has space for all our outdoors gear and sporting equipment, can house a large campervan next to the garage, etc. The schools nearby are nice. We are a family of 4.
My dad would be devastated if the house "left" the family.

My sister is a single parent on disability benefits with one daugther, with ME (this is relevant). My sister has scoliosis and arthritis, and currently lives in the canaries, due to the weather. This house is in the bloomin Arctic.

I have just been told that my sister approached my dad after Christmas, after I told her we were keen to move into the house in future, that she wants the house and offered to "buy" it from him cheaply.
My dad also told me that my sisters daughter let slip this summer that the house was possibly worth 400k, according to her uncle (dads brother) and that they would help her get it for herself.

Another relevant fact is that 10 years ago, my sister, who could not stand our uncle, the last few months of his life started to pay him real attention. She never bothered about him before. Whereas I would always spend time with him because I loved him, and she told me she loathed him. The result was that he left her a significant amount of money in a safe deposit box in town, kept away from his will.

She is a cunning cow that will think nothing of walking all over me.
When I was a teenager, me and her went on a holiday to nice. I got a really bad food poisoning. She bought lots of books. She wanted to go to the post office, to send the books home, to ensure her suitcase was lighter. She told me that she would help me with mine, as I was ill, if her suitcase was lighter. She said we needed to go by cab to the post office, due to me being ill. She did not need me at the post office, she spoke fluent French. I was in bed at the hotel feeling awful, and she dragged me out and into a cab. She told me I had to pay the cab journey with all the books to the post office. Because I was ill, and she would have walked unless I came with her. On the way back to the hotel, she found another bookshop. And went straight in, to buy more books, as she now had room in her suitcase. She did not help me with my suitcase, but I paid for the cab fare to the post office, and for sending her books home.
She has a good full time job. I had saved up for 6 months, and had a summer job, to pay my share of the holiday and have pocket money.

Now she seems to be plotting to get the house. I dont know what to think and what to do. I told my dad today that Maybe it is best he makes a will, and stipulate that my sister gets the house, and make it fair. Because I know he is fair, and always have wanted to be fair to the two of us. I told him I only have one sister, and I dont want any relationship to be ruined by her plotting to get the house so maybe it is better if she actually gets it.

This was actually sparked by us finding a box of needlework after my grandma in the attic. She sat back and let me chose some the tablecloths, volunteering that I have the ones she had admired the most the following day when we found them, with dad present, making a song and dance about me getting the "best ones", and eventually taking my pile of tablecloths with her to Spain, "by mistake".

I am possibly not thinking clearly, I have had wine, and I am tired. But what do I do?

It is not about the house. She can have the house. I just hate that she is plotting and making intrigue to get it, behind my back, and with dad still alive and living here, after I have told her I would be keen to have it at some point in the future, thinking she would not be able to neither look after it nor pay its upkeep. I would be happy to not have it. I just feel that again I am betrayed. And I am sad that she appears to not give a shit about me, and that greed always seem to come in the way.

I'm here long enough I've seen her threads and it's not a go honest it's just alien to me. My sisters can have whatever my parents have, all I want are the photographs And I'll be happy to copy them and return them. I'm sorry you are having problems with your sister though OP. seems to me like ye are both gunning for the same thing for different reasons and you should both sit down with the da and tell him the importance of a will and leave it at that. Is that a possibility?

I think a will is needed otherwise some of the estate is likely to pass to your mum. She is still alive and even with a pre nup she is still the spouse.

see www.norjus.no/visartikkel.asp?art=254 for overview of Norwegian inheritance.

Threads like this want me to spend all my money whilst I'm alive.

To be honest, if you have a paralyzed dad in a wheelchair after a stroke, and a mum with dementia in a nursing home, it would be odd not to try work out what is going to happen. Especially when there is no will. I imagine my mum will inherit everything, and the assets seized and by the council, this happens if somebody owns property but is not of sound mind.

Moredecai, it was pretty alien to me too, until now! I thought that until now, considering she lives in Spain, and cant live here for health reasons, she lasts only a week or two before her joints start aching and she goes all "stiff", we could at some point in the future live in this house, and the flat on the lower ground floor be available for my sister and her dd to use, in addition to me buying her out! I did not think it was an issue.

If my father had wanted the house sold, it would not even come up. But he is very proud that he has made the drawings, made a model, that the house is all his dreams come true, that he has himself built the cabinets, and done lots of work to it. It is his pride and joy. He does not see that cracks in the brick work, the peeling paint, etc. I guess to him, the house is like pictures. It has been vastly extended as the family grew, it had a lower ground floor flat where my uncle used to live, and a granny annex in the loft where my grandma used to live. It is a massive 3000 sqf house. Not that much other wealth, as my dad is 85, and been in a wheelchair after a stroke 10 years ago.

I honestly thought I was doing the family a favour by taking this on. I imagine it is going to cost several annual salaries to make repairs to it!

I have the pictures, we found photos of the bombing of Narvik in the attic, my uncle took them. I will scan them all and take care of them. All I want is some of my grandmas needlework, I cant imagine me wanting any of my parents stuff. They have been dealt a horrid blow, health wise, and I dont even want to think about all this.

I dont need the house, it is not about the house. I just feel hurt that she is telling my dad one thing, me another, and getting her daugthers aunts and uncles involved, whereas normally she is not on speaking terms with them.

Maybe I am over thinking it.
In a way, I should be relieved she wants it. It puts less pressure on me.

I may be speaking out of turn as I don't know you, but I find it odd that you and your sister seem to be deciding what to do with your parents property when they are both still alive. For reasons I don't want to go into here I expect to inherit nothing and if I wanted to I could challenge this as it is unfair. But that would mean causing upset with my parents and siblings and what is the point? Your parents property belongs to them and not you or your sister. If I were you I would accept that you may inherit nothing and concentrate on enjoying your dad's company and supporting both your parents in their remaining years with you.

I think you are pretty naive, to be honest, dances. And I dont think you understand quite what the issue is.

Not that I do myself, to be honest, but this thread is very useful for me because it is forcing me to think about these issues, and pinpoint what exactly about the situation is making me uneasy.

I expect nothing but an enormous headache over my parents assets. I am already having one. I have done my fathers and my mothers tax returns for them for the last few years, I have represented them in court together with the family lawyer over planning regulations regards to a power plant build in the blardy mountains, directing water away from the river and into pipes, opposing the build due to ruining the natural habitat of numerous birds and insects, and not to mention salmon that needs the river to spawn.

All the time I have been trying to persuade my dad to "live a little", spend his money, get rid of stuff, not least to make it easier for myself.
I tried to persuade him to buy himself a fantastic flat, overlooking fjords and mountains, in a complex where other retired people live, near mums nursing home, so he could have an easy life and see her more regularly. But no, he cant sell the house. It needs to stay in the family.

I dont want any of this. I dont need any of this. In Norway, you are taxed on land you dont even have a building on, every quarter money is direct debit out on "council tax", and every year tax is deducted on "value of land". I honestly have no interest in land that will sit there idle, costing me money. Land that nobody wants to buy! The council tax on this house is enormous, the "value of land" tax on this house equally so.

My parents had or has a will that was/is mutually beneficial to either of them, which is as it should be. But now that my mum is in a nursing home, and does not even know who we are, or that my father is not her father, how is that going to work?

I am worried that my dad, who by all means, is an old man, at 85, will pass away before her, she is only 78, and in good health, aside from dementia.

This is going to cause me an even bigger headache. I dont have power of attorney. I dont want it, to be honest. I want him to ensure that the family lawyer has that. But it is too late to get power of attorney for mum, as she would have had to be of sound mind to agree to it.

If he passes away before her, we will have to pay council tax and "value of land tax" on her house, as her pension is not going to be sufficient for this. This is in the region of 5 k annually. Plus, we need to keep the heating on, to ensure that the pipes dont freeze, and this will cost. We dont have spare cash for this. The property cannot be let, moved into, or sold, unless mum is of sound mind and agrees to it, which she isnt.

I think my sister is merely adding to complications on an emotional level. As all this would have been so much easier to deal with if she was open and honest about what she wants.

Having been looking after my parents and their assets, with authority over their accounts, paid all their bills, handled all their taxes and direct debits, and accounting for every little expenditure made on behalf of my mum, and dealing with all the legal things relating to the family, while my sister has been blissfully shielded from this, I feel that this is my headache. My dad cant do any of this, as he cant write, has a poor short term memory, cant retain information, cant do online banking, etc.

Maybe this is not a headache I should take ownership over. Maybe this is one last thing to hand back to my father after his stroke, and just say to him "Get a will, sort it out" And leave it to him.

Yes, my posts were possibly incoherent. I was tired and frustrated. I feel much better now. Thanks.

I need to let him handle this.
It is a practical issue. It should not be an emotional one.

If your father deteriates he might need to go into a home & the government will force him to sell the house to pay for it

Gumby, that is a fair point.

But I have not wanted to bring this up with him. It is also the issue that here the government charge 75% of all income, regardless of size of income, even interest on bank balance, in Fees. This means that my mums fees are very low, as she is on basic state pension. She gets £1200 pcm pension, and the state takes 75% of this for her nursing home fees.
My dads fees would be a lot higher, as he is on a higher pension level, and has private pensions and interest too. But I dont think they force people to sell property.

That is fine, this is how it is, and I cant do anything about that.

(My neighbour has a cousin whose mum ended up in a nursing home. She lived in an apartment building. Her flat is seized on her behalf, and her relatives can neither sell it, move into it, or let it out, as the government has it in "safekeeping". They have to pay maintenance and ground rent on the flat though, in addition to keeping the electricity on, to prevent pipes from bursting. It is very frustrating. )

I have asked to change the thread title and move this to Elderly Parents topic.

Hi, we've moved this to Elderly Parents.

I think what you need is a way to come to terms with the detachment you are going to have to practise when (sorry) your parents do pass away.

It looks like a situation you cannot fix, since it is up to your father to organise things and he seems not to want to. I am guessing he is a rather stubborn/tenacious man?

You aren't responsible for your sister and cannot change her either. You can't make her less grasping. At this rate she simply will end up with more than you (to put it bluntly) and I understand how corrosive that thought is.

Turn your back to her, mentally. Try to persuade your father to make a will. If he won't, he won't. Lessen contact with your sister (easy to do, nothing need be said). Prepare for her to take everything she possibly can. Work out how you can detach yourself psychologically from this, and from her. I'd suggest pre-emptive therapy.

They made dh's grandma sell her house
She was allowed 20k in savings
That was it

I don't have anything wise to say (apart from not writing a will is a right pita by your dad, and wills have been a huge issue in my extended family).
But you aren't odd to think in depth about what will happen when your parents die - mine are in very poor health too, and I know which funeral director to use, where the wills are lodged, my dads specific requests, and which dementia units local to me would be suitable for mum (she wouldn't be able to be left on her own at all) amongst a lot of other things.
I think for those with healthy parents, this seems heartless, but I know that their time is highly limited, and how fast things can get critical, and I'll have to sort it all out for them.

QS
I just wanted to say I'm sorry for the horror of this all. It's normal and wise to try to get in order what happens whilst your father can make his wishes known
Around a table (preferably) if not individually
Make clear to him your plan for the family home
Allow your sister to do the same or give him your understanding and get him to confirm
Try to keep it free from emotion (impossible, but it'll make it easier for all)
But make it very clear that without a will the fallout between you and your sister will be insurmountable.
His hope for a jolly agreement over the house is gone, reality must be addressed

He will then see the need to write a will
Again I'm sorry for this awful situation you are going through

I think you need to get your father to make a will and leave you the house.#Your sister sounds vile

I don't really have any advice to give but this kind of thing has happened a lot in our family.

My dad was written out of his mother's will at the last minute.

My great uncle was "groomed" for the last 6months of his life and left all his money to a someone we had never heard of.

I suspect this kind of thing is horribly common.

Given everything you've said it does sound like a good idea to suggest again that he make a will. Is he aware that if he dies first your mum will get everything which will in due course be held by state due to her dementia? Surely this would be a very bad outcome however you look at it as no one is benefitting. I think you should encourage him to make a will and this should come from both you and your sister jointly. I would try not to pressurise him either way about the will's contents however.

I think it is a good idea.

Not tell him what to put in his will, just to make a will, to ensure that his assets are not seized due to falling into the hands of a demented spouse.

It will make everything a lot easier.

Not looking forward to that discussion. He is quite set in his ways. And even though he knows he is old and frail, does not like to think about the future.

Even though he knows the palaver and cost, when his brother passed away 10 years ago. It took nearly 2 years to sort his estate, as there was no will.

They did however find a will a few years later, but it was actually in line with whatever happened.

My uncle told the provisions of his will to my mum, in the presence of Matron (?) at the hospital, but the lawyer did not get there in time to finalize it. It was a mess, even if the sole benefactor was my dad!!

Good luck Quint - it sounds like it'll be a hard conversation but especially given his stated desire to keep his beloved house in the family surely the last thing he would want is for it to go to the state. I think you should be able to get him to agree to make a will if he sees this is a possible outcome of not. If you don't pressurise him on the content I can't see him objecting.

Oh dear Quint - I hope you can get your Dad to write a new will.

I don't know what the situation would be like where you are but it could be an extremely dire situation if your sister moves into the house before your Dad passes away, although possibly not if the Council will seize it to pay your mother's costs.

We have a terrible situation with a shared ownership house in the family, where one inheriting member is "squatting" in it (although they are part-owners under the terms of the Will so not really squatting) and refuse to leave, pay rent, pay their share of the inheritance tax or pretty much anything helpful. This has been ongoing for nearly 7 years now and is putting intolerable pressure on the other inheritors - it's a nightmare and the house is now starting to disintegrate. :( At this rate, even if the house sells, it will barely make enough to cover the inheritance tax that has been paid out. While I'm sure no right-thinking person wants to really make money out of losing family, it's dreadful to lose money over it as well.

There was a law suit of Dickensian proportions in my family (deceased great uncle hadn't made a will despite the fact that he was a judge and 2 out of 3 family members were either solicitors, barristers or judges; his late wife's family and the old housekeeper fought for years over the house; there had been verbal promises and squatters rights were involved too somewhere along the line.) My own father felt he was being given a death sentence when mum packed him off to my cousin's solicitor's office to make a will. People can be very funny about this business. There is a lot of pride involved and maybe the confusion of old age contributes, but it is completely selfish of someone no matter how old to leave property exposed to seizure or to leave relatives to fight it out among themselves when they are dead and gone. Everyone who has a child or another dependent should have a will.

However Quint, your dad has already crossed that emotional hurdle, with mutually beneficial wills already in existence. It really should be possible to persuade him to amend his will even if your mother's is now beyond changing.

The house and every single thing in it needs to be accounted for and disposed of as your dad sees fit.

"Everyone who has a child or another dependent should have a will."
So true!

That actually includes me too. (should find the Resident Will maker )

I did manage to speak to him today. I took it from the angle of "dad, make a will, any will, I dont care what it says, but please make one. I dont want to get further problems on top of losing you" After I had highlighted to him the problems we could possibly face if mum inherits as per the current will.

He agreed! He told me to instruct the family lawyer to make a will that divides everything equally between my sister and I.

Following advice upthread I said. "I will email him and ask him to get in touch with you next week about sorting the will, but I wont tell him what it should say, that will be between you and him". He said "Ok, lets do it!" He then said it would be a relief to get this issue laid to rest so we did not have to worry about any bickering on the graveside.... He grinned. So sense of humour.

I am really relieved.

Quint that is fantastic news, good for you. And yes, you should bloomin well make a will too!

I dont have any issues relating to distribution of my personal assets, but I do have a couple of hymns I would like for my family to endure. ...

Great news

Hurrah! Very pleased your Dad has agreed to it Quint, hope it gets sorted out now. :)