Secular schools

[TeddyBare]

My dd will be starting school in 3 years (yes I know I'm worrying about this far too early) and I'm really hoping that there will have been a change to the law which makes collective worship compulsory before she starts. Was the religious-ness of schools you looked at a factor in your decision? How can you find out how seriously the school takes its obligation to provide collective worship? If they will get bad ofstead reports for not providing collective worship, I'm assuming that most schools wouldn't advertise it even if they were not. Do your dcs attend the collective worship? Are there many who don't in your school? and do they miss out on much? Does anyone know of any schools which don't provide collective worship - dh and I are considering a German school in the UK because of this, but I would prefer an English school.
DH and I are atheist and are uncomfortable with our dcs being encouraged to pray or believe the bible. I'm more than happy for dd to learn about all world religions in a detached and informative way, I'm just uncomfortable with her worshipping or having to miss out on whole school activities. Obviously if she makes an informed choice to follow a religion when she is old enough to understand it then we would support her, but in the mean time I would prefer for her not to be taught to follow Christianity or any other religion.

I have found a few campaigns against collective worship being compulsory for a school to provide if anyone else would be interested:
Humanist association and Government website". I'm also considering setting up an e-petition.

Both my DCs went to Church of England primaries. I am atheist and would have preferred my DCs to have gone to secular schools, but most of the primaries in this rural area are faith schools, so I didn't have any realistic choice.

They had assemblies with a short prayer every day, followed the local RE syllabus, which included world religions and ethics and the local vicar came into the school every so often to talk to the pupils. They were in no way brainwashed to believe anything.

I know for a fact that the headteacher of one of the schools isn't a believing Christian and I suspect the other one isn't either.

My personal view is that all schools should be secular. Amongst other things, it would get rid of hypocritical selection by the church door. However, I was very happy with my DCs' experience at primary school and wouldn't worry about it too much.

As you state, all schools have to provide a daily act of collective worship. This is a problem in secondary schools, because there are generally not enough large spaces. They comply with the law by having a few minutes of quiet reflection on a "thought for the day". It's quite common to see a criticism about it on Ofsted reports, but if that's the only criticism, most schools couldn't care less.

I'm an Athiest, I'm also a RS teacher. My DD goes to a CofE school (because it is our village school), but she used to go to a community school.

Personally, I like the RS in schools. I think it is valuable (obviously ) but I also think all too often it is done badly, and taught as facts, rather than taught as beliefs. I do not mind my DD going to a CofE school too much, because I like to think I am open minded, and not too much of a closed minded dogmatic atheist (along the lines of Richard Dawkins). I do not think it my place to teach my daughter what to believe - she needs to decide that for herself, although at 6, we have already had lots of interesting questions about God and Jesus, and whether she thinks God exists or not. I think it is good for her to hear my views, and those of others, so that she can genuinely make her own decision.

I would however, happily see the end of compulsory collective worship in schools. I do not think that appropriate, and I have always refused to do collective worship as a RS teacher - that is not what I am employed to do, and I think it blurs my role. I also think we need to move over to it being Religious Studies rather than Religious Education.
But these are just my views .

I also don't do collective worship as an RS teacher-agree whole heartedly with HK about blurring of roles. Wouldn't worry about it though-although RS is compulsory it's very moral issues and looks at ethics and ideas of all faiths and none. Also, don't know a school that sticks to the collective worship guidelines for every day, or even once a week fir some! And things like carol concerts can be good fun for many pupils

From the experience I have of my kids RS and RS teachers I know. Actually most moral stuff is done in PSHE. In RS it is more comparing the moral view point of different religions, seeing what they have in common and how they differ. I also think it does give our kids an advantage (certainly over the US) that they have been taught about other beliefs in an academic way, (as opposed to all religious teaching n the US being church based).
Different secondary schools are quite different, most really don't do much about a daily collective worship. My DCs secondary has one religious service in the whole 7 years, in year 7 they go to a local church for a memorial service for the guy the school is named after. Occasionally they have speakers from religions in assembly, but that is pretty much it. The head is a Catholic btw. Another senior school has a non-believing head, but they have the full range of harvest festivals, Christmas and Easter services etc.
At my DCs primary, a C of E one, there is a lot of spirituality. But actually not much RE taught in lessons. I know one piece of work is writing their own creation stories based on Hindu and Native American ones.

If you are a very "devote" atheist, then you might need to hunt around for a Richard Dawkins school. Sorry.

We had no choice becasue all the schools nearby were C of E schools. My children did and do go to ccollective worship. You can opt out of collective worship but my dd was picked on as a result so after a while she did join in. Our school does a long collective worship every day. It often involves guest preachers. It can be quite extreme TBH.

Have you seen the Richard Dawkins thread on here, he is looking for people to be in a documentary about this. The email address is in the thread.

There are no secular schools in England. There is very little difference between a faith school and a nonfaith school. A faith school will have a close relationship with the vicar and go to church. You are quite right in thinking that you need to join an organisation and campaign if you want change.

I don't really see why you are so bothered. Your DC is only the DC of atheists, in the same way that the DC of Christians is only the DC of Christians. They will make up their own mind in due course. In order to make up their own minds they need to know all opinions. You can discuss anything at home. I can't see why your DC should end up with the same views as you or even why it bothers you. I am a Christian and I have 3 DSs who are not and won't set foot in church-it is entirely up to them. I fail to see why me giving birth means I can tell them what to believe. I had much rather that they had all the information and made up their own minds-it makes them much stronger in the long run. I think that you have to be very openminded-bringup in a certain way and encourage and debate but don't censor things that you don't like.

It doean't have to be about censoring though pisces. I think of it this way. My children are given a broad religious education at home. We discuss many types of faith and atheism. We do not try to make them choose anything it will be their choice just as you say, so no bias.

However, at school they are taught that christianity is the only true way. We would prefer them to be left to decide for themselves.

Imagine if you had no choice but to send your child to an atheist school. At school they would have to attend atheist meetings everyday. They would be told there is no God for an hour a day by various experts.

That would be terrible would it not ?

I want my children to be educated about religion but not told what to believe.

HoopyFroodDude Most schools I know, even my DCs spiritual C of E primary, don't tell children what to believe (actually maybe a less spiritual one might do). They do sing Christian songs there (I don't think they do except the one service in 7 years at seniors school). At the primary the most spiritual assembly is the "thoughtful" one in class, which normally involves some time for quiet thought, and a discussion on something like "forgiveness" (which involved was there ever a time you did something wrong and had to say sorry, with no message drawn out of it, just time for thought).

Proselytism is not allowed at school.

To the OP. You've probably found it on the Humanist site but there is a standard letter parents can send to schools to remove their children from any religious activities.

Contrary to many people's understanding, while it is compulsory to teach RE, it is not compulsory for a child to be involved. This also applies to secondary schools that teach GCSE RE. Any parent can withdraw their child from RE lessons, collective worship, and any religious activities.

Teddybare, really just wanted to say that I share your concern at the role that religion plays in state education. I noticed that for one of our local (non-church) secondary schools, at least two consecutive Ofsted reports disapprovingly flagged up the school's failure to follow the collective worship requirements. There is a secondary C of E school close by plus a Catholic secondary reasonably close, and any church-going parent for whom a collective act of worship was important would almost certainly have sent their children to one of those schools. Neither I nor my DH are Christians, but we send our children of a C of E voluntary aided primary school because it is de facto the local school for our area and is a good school in other ways. There is definitely an element of children being taught Christian beliefs as fact. Interestingly, DS has never believed it. DD did go through a phase of believing it and arguing with us. Not exactly sure what her beliefs are now (she is still very young). Whilst there have been a few religion-related incidents at the school that I have felt really uncomfortable with, I don't get hugely bothered by collective act of worship issues generally - perhaps I am influenced by the fact that I sat through daily Christian acts of worship all through primary school, but ultimately made my own mind up and have not been a Christian in adult life.

That isn't the way it works HoopyFroodDude, I go into a lot of assemblies (supply teacher) and no one is told what to believe. Very often the person taking it says in front 'Christians believe' and at the prayer they carefully say 'If you would like to make this your prayer say amen at the end'. If they don't want to make it a prayer the DC remains silent. Even the C of E schools don't expect them to believe, they are very often the only school in the area and have Hindu's etc among the pupils.I don't go to any RC schools so I can't say what they do.
I have never yet met a DC who got a faith through a school assembly! I have been to literally hundreds-I would be hard pressed to tell you much about them!
I find it odd that a vicar is supposed to have Christian parents. It is quite likely a vicar has atheist parents. DCs will make up their own mind-bring them up a particular way and they will probably follow the parent- but I can't see why this is necessary or even particularly desirable. I like to bring them up to have their own thoughts and not be easily led.I have never been keen on 'because mummy says so'-why not expose them to what everyone else thinks? I differ on lots of things with my mother-it doesn't affect our relationship. I can't see how we would have had a good relationship if she had said 'I am a Christian-you must be one'!

'If you would like to make this your prayer say amen at the end'

My problem with this statement is when it's made to young children they are scared not to say Amen there is no alternative offered...they should tail on the end and if you don't wish to say Amen that's OK, it won't matter.

My kids were asked "if you wish put your hands together and pray" - they felt compelled - even when I said to them that's nonsense we don't pray...they were too worried about appearing disobedient...another parent beat me to the chat with the Head - now they tag on "and if you don't that's OK"

The Collective Worship aspect of schooling makes me feel uneasy - replace it with another religion other than Christianity - try paganism and see the Christians have a freak attack. School is not the place for collective worship - religious worship is a personal thing - if you are so committed to church life surely the church and the parent should be the main educators.

Maybe we should allow the committed religious kids 10 min in the morning & afternoon for prayers while the rest of the kids played.

How can there possibly be any committed religious kids? They are not anything-they are too young-I think you are talking about the parents.

How can you say we don't pray? I think you mean I don't pray. You can't tell your DCs what they believe or don't believe. Most DCs don't say anything-very few say amen.

For what it is worth I don't think that collective worship has any place in schools but I am a bit at the we, as you project your ideas on your DCs.

You give birth, but a DC is a free willed person-they might follow the we or they might not. I find it very strange that I am expected to follow my parents because they tell me to-even at 5 yrs I had my own views.

Tis very true - we don't pray as a family. I prayed with my family when I was growing up, all my Christian friends say goodnight prayers with their kids before bed, so it is very accurate to say we don't pray. My kids don't believe in God - how could they - they know nothing of it.
In Reception and Year 1 they found it enormously difficult to be non believers because RE was taught in such a way so as to suggest that it was fact...in my opinion it is a load of nonsense and I know people have the right to believe whatever they like but it annoys me that my kids have to listen to that drivel.
Having been educated in Catholic Schools I had thought state schools were free of religious influence and I could allow my kids to make up their own minds and I was shocked to discover I was completely out of touch - so fairs fair - the Church has an insider influence on my kids through collective worship and having a vicar on the GB, so to give a balanced view on things I set about explaining religion as I saw it to my kids...and my kids thought I was right.
They are older now and more able to express their feelings....I of course would take them to church if they so desired but thankfully they don't...

I think my main concern is that dd will be encouraged to believe Christianity is the "right" answer. I don't mind if she later chooses to follow any religion, but if she does I want it to be an informed decision. Subtle things like songs which celebrate God can have an impact on the way people think, especially as primary schools often seem to expect the dcs to learn the songs by heart. I don't want to be constantly reminding her that the bible is only what some people believe and not actually factual. I'm also worried that there will be a lot of pressure on us to spend quite a lot of time talking about non-Christian religions at home so that dd's exposure to different ideas is balanced.
Piscesmoon - I don't think we're devout atheists and I really want dd to be able to make up her own mind. I think the best way for her to make up her own mind is to learn equal amounts about lots of religions so that she doesn't see Christianity as the default option and anything else as unusual. I think that is something which could happen if more time is spent on learning about Christianity or it is taught in different ways (e.g. with songs and stories instead of just in specific RE classes).

And the "committed religious kids" thing was tongue in cheek - I'm guessing most kids would rather go out and play with real friends rather than listen someone going on about an imaginary one.

Christianity is the culture of this country-if you celebrate Christmas you are taking part (of course it has pagan origins, but not as Christ mass. They learn about other religions. RE has to be taught by law-the only subject to have to be taught by law. Schools have to have collective worship, of a broadly Christian nature-by law. OP was quite right in tat she needs to campaign rather than moan.
You can easily balance it at home.
It is rather like bringing up your DC to be aLiverpool supporter, you can support them yourself, take them to matches etc and your DC will probably become a Liverpool supporter. However they may equally decide that actually they support Man U and that is their priviledge. It shouldn't make any difference to your relationship.
My DCs are christened and I took them to church when young, they don't go now and they are not confirmed. They may possibly change when older but I doubt it. I just fail to see why it mattters and why it should bother me. I can only control myself-I can't control anyone else.

Although I don't think that collective worship has a place in schools I can't see why people get so upset about it. I would love someone to show me an adult that became a Christian through a school assembly-if it was so easy the churches would be full! My DSs never told me a word about a school assembly-if I didn't know better I would have thought they never had one. I have asked DCs straight afterward what it was about and many can't say!
Trust your own DC. If they are going to believe something 'because mummy says so', they are quite likely to believe someone else because 'they say so'. I prefer mine to question everything-including me. Certainly by the age of 8yrs I would be horrified if they said 'mummy says we don't pray'-I would expect them to say 'I don't pray because.....'and it to have no particular bearing on what mummy does.

Why do they do it then - why do they have collective worship - they convert no one it has no effect...sounds like a waste of time and teachers are always going on about how many things they need to teacg in a day. Maybe we could find something to say with more impact - given that it doesn't affect anyone.
Over time if a child has been subjected to religious nonsense for 5 minutes a day - that a lot of learning time wasted on something that has no effect - it just doesn't add up. Why waste time like this - should we waste a bit more on something else if it really doesn't matter?
Piecesmoon - you christained your children - were they in agreement with that? What was the point if they weren't, if they didn't understand what was happening? ]
IMO tradition is no excuse for continuing with something that does not make sense. And as for RetailmasChristmas I'd easily give it up. There certainly are no semi-religious icons in this house - I don't recall the tree being mentioned in the Bible or Santa or fairy lights to name but a few...

Apologies for spelling errors etc - I really should proof read more often!

Read the 1998 education act-that is why they do it!
I don't think that you understand christenings ICFAGNN-you promise on behalf of the DC-since they were less than 4 months old of course they weren't in agreement-unless they were some sort of genius! They then promise themselves when they are old enough to agree. They didn't-which is fair enough.
I still fail to see why your DC needs to follow your beliefs and why it matters! If David Cameron's DCs want to join the Labour party-they can! If a vegan's DC wants to eat a sausage roll at a party they can! Laying down the law about what you think they should think is setting yourself up for trouble-there are 3 ways, they follow, they do it in secret or they rebel. Why not give them the freedom in the first place?

Doesn't sound like your kids have freedom of choice though - you promise on their behalf -how are you fulfilling that promise? My folks promised on my behalf too - what a waste of time.

My kids are fully aware that their choices are just that, their choices - they joined their hands to pray not because they wanted to but because they felt like they had to - compliance is demanded in all they do at school, maybe your kids go somewhere more liberal?

So when I asked why they did it when we don't pray - they admitted that they felt they'd be told off if they didn't - children are often told off in assembly.

I did not intend to express my views on religion to my kids at such an early age, till I found out they were being brainwashed by school - points of view need to be balanced and if they are being fed on the God Diet - I am certainly going to step in to make it more balanced.

I'm quite sure David Cameron's kids are very well aware of his political views - if they are very innocent they will not name them as Tory just yet - but the influence will be there nonetheless.

When I asked why did they do it - I wasn't referring to why the school did it - I was asking why the law requires it if it is all so pointless...seems a bit extreme to me, for something that has no effect.

You would think peple had better things to do with their time.

I am not going in to why the law requires it-you would need several hours and the history of this country and education!
If you want change you have to campaign for a secular country. Join the secular society who are trying to do it. While the Queesn is head of the church and head of state and the 2 are intertwined with the Prime Minister choosing Archbishops etc etc there isn't a hope! They are state schools, C of E is the state religion. I am not saying this is a good thing-it is just a fact. Get disestablishmentarianism and you will get secular schools.
Of course my DCs had freedom of choice-and they used it! I can't possibly promise that they will do something on their behalf. You can't control another person's mind. I promised on their behalf, until they were old enough to understand for themselves and if they had wanted to they would have made their own promise and been confirmed. They did understand and they didn't promise. I can't see why this is any big deal. I really can't see why you expect your DCs to fall in line with whatever you happen to believe or not believe. My friend has the opposite, she is an atheist and her DS has his whole social life around the the Christian Union at university and the local church. He never set foot in a church until he went to university. Why does this matter? Why does it make any difference to their relationship? Variety is the spice of life! I expect most of the problems that adult posters have with their parents is because the parent thinks they can control the sort of person they are or the belief system. It is wise to never get into it. I find it astounding that every deeply religious person is expected to have a deeply religious child and every atheist is supposed to produce an atheist child, when it is a mere accident of birth! Your DC is not a 'blank sheet' for you to write on. Trust your DC-it is good for them to come across that sort of thing early and get used to being descerning for themselves.
I have never been into an assembly where DCs are told they must pray-and I go into a lot. Maybe they are muddling the fact that they are expected to sit in silence and respect other people who are praying. Tolerance is a good thing-best learned early.