appeal advice please

[swissrole]

we are in the process of buying a house in a vllage with a good school. We have 2 children - one will start in reception (the intake is 24) in sept. The older child's class has 30 children already and as such is full. Apparently it is against the law to have over 30. We are now wondering wether to continue with the move and what the possible outcome of our appeal might be. Does anyone have any advice or insight? Many thanks.

swissrole - people with more knowledge than me will be able to clarify but I thought schools could take more then 30 (and if it is a key stage 2 class are able to take more than 30). I think there is a special exemption they can apply. I'm assuming you are in the catchment area because if so I think they are obliged to try and find you a place.

Yes - schools have to 'keep' a few extra places for travelling children/forces children etc and my deputy head frioends currently teaches 35 children in her class.
If you're really close, then it'll be done as the crow flies if there's no list of others waiting I think.
My school said that theoretically, if there was a child at their school (town school) who came from a village with its own school but who had chosen to send dcs to the town school, they could ask them to remove child to give yours the place if you're closer.

Thanks sundew. It's yr 2 so ks1 and yes we would be in catchment. The head was sympathetic saying the LA have filled up the class with out of catchment appeal cases. He also said one option would be to split the class but it would be unlikely.

well if I'm correct about the out of catchment thing, those appeal cases should really make way for your child (I think). hat's what our school said would happen but they have smaller classes due to double year intake. They are allowed more than 30 though so challenge him.

If a travelling came to the area, that child would be put into a class of over 30 I'm pretty certain.

sorry - meant to say travelling family

Swissrole - Starting with your older child, as there are already 30 in the class and it is year 2 any appeal would be heard under infant class size rules. That means you can only win your appeal if you can show that the LA has made a mistake. In your situation that is unlikely. You would have a better chance in year 3 when class size rules no longer apply.

For your younger child, however, you have a better chance of success. As there are only 24 in the class, infant class size rules do not apply. That means you only have to show that the prejudice to your child through not being admitted outweighs the prejudice to the school through having an extra child. As they are already operating with 30 in at least one infant class and the sky hasn't fallen in, you can use that to suggest that one or two more in reception won't be a huge problem. That won't guarantee success but, particularly if you can make a good case as to why this is the right school for your younger child, you will have a reasonable chance.

Luciemule - Schools do NOT keep a few extra places for travelling children, forces children, etc. That would be against the law. Every Local Authority has to have a "Fair Access Protocol" which says how places will be found for certain categories of children including traveller children and armed forces children. It also includes children moving into the area outside the normal admissions round whose parents have been unable to find a place for them due to a shortage of places. They will normally be placed at the nearest school with places available. However, if there is no school within a reasonable distance with places available they will normally be allocated to the nearest school best able to accept additional children, even if that takes them over the class size limit. For one year these children are "excepted children", which means they don't count towards the class size limit and therefore no laws are broken. After that the school will have to employ additional teachers to get the classes back down below 30.

Your school is also wrong about asking a parent to remove their child from the school to give a place to another child who lives closer. They are absolutely not allowed to do that. The Admissions Code is clear. Once a child has started at the school you can only take the place away if their application was fraudulent. If they try to take a place away from a child simply to make way for someone else they will be in all sorts of trouble.

prh47 - my undertsnading was what you have artculated in a far better way. So the school swissrole has applied to could take her dc under the exepted children rule - with the understanding that her dc1 will be in yr3 after the 12 month period and hence class size no longer relevant.

sundew - I read this that the youngest already has a place. The OP wants to apply for a place for the oldest one but will be told the school is full. That's not a mistake made by the admissions authority and is therefore not appealable at Primary stage

From what the appeals guru says (prh - he/she really knows their stuff) OP may be worthwhile asking the Admissions Authority what school will be allocated to the eldest. It may end up being the village school, depending on remoteness/other close schools being full etc etc. That's my take anyway. PRH will know for sure.

Sundew - Yes they could but only if the LA gives dc1 a place at that school under their Fair Access Protocol. The school can't simply declare a child to be an excepted child off their own bat.

I agree with MotherJack that it would be worth asking the LA what school will be allocated to the eldest. They won't be able to give a definitive answer as it depends on the situation on the date of application but they should be able to give some indication.

thanks everyone, my daughter hasn't got a place in reception but i am fairly confident she will because of the 24 thing. This 30 ks1 rule is the real problem because we are likely to end up in a situation where they could be at different schools which would be logistically difficult. then we might have to move them again later which is not ideal. All this is defeating the very object of moving to the village as we would find ourselves in a worse situation than we are already in. the reason we want to move is we need a larger house and a village environment for the children where we can throw ourselves into the local community. we are crestfallen. i will ask where elder child might might be placed but everything about that option is making me scream NNNOOOOOO.

prh -"Every Local Authority has to have a "Fair Access Protocol" which says how places will be found for certain categories of children including traveller children and armed forces children."
That's what I said.

Also prh reception aren't allowed to go over the limit - they're the year who defo can't due to ratios etc.

Perhaps my school (C of E) is slightly different as they're currently allowed to choose thier own intake system -I don't know-I'm repeating what school told me; I didn't say children who were already there, I meant when they were choosing reception apps, they would not choose a child out of catchment over new child moving here who lives down the road.

Lucie - reception can go over the 30 in certain circumstances. You need to read the Schools Admissions code.... or not (it's a bit dry ). I went through this a couple of years ago and devoured the document.

How I wish you were around then prh!

I don't know then - it was two teachers (one in reception) who told me that!

Luciemule, Sorry to teachers on here, but they are usually not very clued up when it comes to things like admissions.
Swissrole. The bottom line is that a year 2 admission appeal that has a PAN of 30 will be an infant class size appeal and as you are moving into the area, the chances of winning a place because of a mistake by the admission authority is very very low.
I would ask the school for a place for September for both children. What they should say is that you need to go to the LA for the reception age child, as they hold the waiting list. They should also say that they are full in year 2 and again refer you to the LA on the basis of appealing for a place. You will need to have a permanent address sorted out before the LA will even consider an application, which may mean that you have to think in terms of a september start for both children.

Yes admissions I have applied to the LA for the reception class and have a refusal letter for yr2. The next round of appeals are not until sept.I think we will carry on with the housemove and hope that it all falls into place. Do you think it's wise?

Oh dear - trouble brewing - husband does not want to buy the house if the kids arn't in the school.

If it were me I'd go for it or you'll never move anywhere. I did (which is how I came to know so much about school admissions!). You may end up with the children in separate schools to start with, which isn't ideal, but if you persist you should manage to get them both in eventually. There is unlikely to be much of a waiting list (if any) for Y2 so it may be a case of simply waiting for someone to move away.

It might be worth asking the LA if there is a waiting list for Y2 and how long it is. They or the school should also be able to give you some idea of how much movement there is.

I would ensure that you are on the waiting list for the yr2 place having accepted the reception place.
The appeal in september seems a long way off but the LA does have 30 school days to arrange it and that would be through into September with the school holidays. Whilst officially you will not be able to claim the sibling link until the youngest starts in september, I am sure that the school will be aware of the sibling link.
I would get that very prominently in the appeal papers and make sure that the appeal is for a start in september for year3 and therefore not infant class size appeal. Also need to play the village life, local community card a lot in the appeal. It would be worth researching where the next nearest schools are, how far they are away - hopefully more than 2 miles and then you can talk about the ability to walk to the local village school.