if all parents were all a little more 'hands off' wouldn't the schooling system be more relaxed again

[southeastastra]

and all children would walk to their local schools to mix with children who all also lived in the local community.

and children could be free to learn at their own pace. can't help but feel that 'helicopter parenting' really has buggered up the system

it's ofsted not parents - bad sats score = school in special measures = teachers getting sacked

It's not the parents. Schools used to be much more relaxed - I was teaching during the introduction of the national curriculum. It made everything much more stressed and pressured. Then along came sats which upped the pressure again. And, of course, parents reacted to this by wanting, naturally, their children to do well in these new tests, and so it went on. The situation has been created entirely by the government.

The education pre national curriculum was every bit as good, IME, without all the pressure.

I think it jolly well IS parents!

You only have to enter "book bag" or "Oxford Reading Tree" into a MN search and see the thousands of threads.

Some people on here are obsessed about their dc's education. It is quite right to be interested and supportive (and in the 'good old days' I think many parents, including mine, were too hands off) but I often read posts on here where people are bordering on wild-eyed madness over complete trivialities.

In fact, I think many parents (or MN ones, anyway) seem to see schooling as a race. And look at that thread about "how do you know your dc is the brightest in the class?". People were hyperventilating in their desperation to post about their dc being top of the tree.

Some parents are obsessed, others are not. And like the Oliver James cortisol thing, it is difficult to decide at which point obsession becomes a bad thing.

I remember a teacher friend of mine, before the National Curriculum, telling us that her set were too stupid to learn the subject so she talked to them about her travels abroad instead. Apparently no parents in those days had any views. I think a little more obsession wouldn't have done any harm.

And for anyone who thinks the old system turned out uniformly educated people, I'd suggest a re-read of Kes- Barry Hines had teaching experience.

Let's also remember that those parents we whinge about today, who have no interest in their children's education and no ability to help them with their homework are, by and large, a product of the old system.

I'm not obsessed - I'm confused - after 5yrs I'd got my head around the Storyworld Reading scheme which DS1 was on, and then DS2...........now DS2 has started bringing home ORT and I'm confused as f*ck again as it looks way easier than what he was reading

Don't you think its the children whose parents don't give a damn (or don't have enough education themselves to value an education for themselves) who mkae the education system worse.

In my classroom, its the children who can't concentrate because they haven't been given breakfast, and have headlice and/or worms, who stop the classroom being a relaxed and fun place for everyone. The same children never do readings or spellings at home, and started school unable to communicate well. They don't have boundaries at home, which makes them feel insecure, which they take out on their clasmates at playtime. Just a few of these in each class is enough to take up a significant proportion of teachers time.

I can't blame the other parents - who do keep their children clean, well fed, and who want their children to acheive academically and get interesting jobs one day - for wishing their children could be in a class with others of like mind.

The question is how to break the cycle which keeps so many parents bringing up children so poorly?

I was totally laid back before my kids started school - it was the school which filled my head full of anxiety. In Reception they listed all the things that they considered broken about my child and what I had to do to fix it. Telling me my dc had fallen way behind the rest and showing me other dc's work and telling me - that was my competition....and they do it to everyone who has a dc not on the top table. The school is obessesed with Sats results.

First paragraph of mine confused, sorry breastfeeding and one handed typing! - I meant don't have enough education themselves to value education for their children. And make not mkae.

I see where you're coming from, SEA, but i have to say that my dc have been in schools where the primary issue is more on the Cory-Lymond continuum.

So I'm not very upbeat and funny about this. In fact, when I see those articles in the paper about "helicopter parents" (and they mean mummies), with their strange mixture of female castigation, middle-class smuggery, and aspiration, I get v. pissed off.

it's middle-class froth. It's not a "problem" I encounter v. much. In fact, it's so far off my radar, I have to ponder in what universe it is considered a "problem", and thus the gap between the two realities: the one my dc inhabit, and this other world - which, apparently, co-exist in the same geographical locality (London).

It's odd that there are these stories about "helicopter parents" and then, side-by-side, scare stories about "feral families" and "articles", sociological in tone, often filletted from sociological studies, that touch on this "other" reality.

Weird. There must surely be a better way of dealing with the disparity of parenting in C21 Britain. And I suspect a lot of us are in the middle, anyway.

Sorry. That sounded too heavy. It's just it does make me sad.

It is a heavy subject, and worrying me for the same reasons you give, animula.

I v.nearly Googled "the Cory-Lymond continuum"

Thank you, I've had a crap morning, but that has really made me giggle, TheBoyWith...

ah, fame at last

I know some parents do go over the top, but I still think it's better for parents to be involved and interested than not.

At my local primary the parents don't give a shit. Completely hands off - no homework or reading done. Hardly anyone at parents evenings etc

The result isn't good.

animula - I too am often about all the horror stories about the middle classes. All these children supposedly haveing breakdowns and having a horrible time of it.

I grew up on a sin estate and am now firmly ensconced in the twilight world of MC parenting and frankly, the kids have got it made.
Happy, healthy, loved, privileged bbeyond measure.

Gramercy - you put it so well. Agree entirely.

Gramercy, it's not as simple as that. I think it's largely fear that drives the competitiveness, fear that your child isn't reaching their potential, fear that the system might fail them longer term.

Ability groupings can be static, and behaviour, IMO is often worse in the lower ability groupings. Parents are keen that their child retains that coveted place on the top table because to slip down means they might not achieve what they are capable of going forward in a seemingly rigid system.

Not every 'system' is like this of course.

I try hard not to 'helicopter' but I am aware that, unlike 30 odd years ago, there are practically no employment opportunities of any worth available to the DC who doesn't achieve '5 GCSE's, A-C, inc Maths and English' which is now 'the gold standard'.

Therefore if you have a DS like one of mine, you have to be on their case the whole time to ensure that 'C' doesn't slide into 'D'!

I'd agree that parents are a big part of the issue, but the system of OFSTED, League Tables etc has driven many of us there. We moved (we were able to!) into the catchemnt of a high achieving secondary because in our previous location, in a leafy small market town, south-of-England, sufficient numbers of parents from the 'failing' school catchments of the nearest big city had 'excercised their preference' to the extent our lovely, well mannered and disciplined secondary, so reflective of its community, suddenly had knife crime and drug searches! Thus began an exodus of local DCs.

Crazy.

I agree with Cortina, too. One reason we have 'selected' (by house price!) this secondary for our DCs is that they do not tolerate poorer behaviour in any class, regardless of the ability group therein. I know that my struggling DS2 will end up in the C levels at best. This is where the genuine C graders are - and the A and B graders who can't be arsed might be in a less disciplined school, or one full of 'non school-ready' and unsocialised DCs. DS1 is reasonably clever. He'd've been fine in more or less any school.

that's a very good point.
I think when some of us were young, it was fine for our parents to leave us to it.
If we weren't academic we could make our way in life. If we were and got to a good uni, we were probably going to have many options.

These days, jobs for the unskilled are very few and far between. And so badly paid.
So more of us realise our DCs will need to stand out.
Even the highly educated are in a global competition. DH was recruiting recently for trainee solicitors and over half were from the far and middle east.

It's tough out there. Are kids are going to need to be uber resourceful.

Have you read the Harpole Report by JL Carr - very funny book and it will make you realise that there were plenty of hands on parents back in the 50s (of course in those days there was the 11+ for parents to be stressed about, much worse than SATS . . .).

The current system is so 'relaxed' it's comatose for all intents and purposes.
Over half of the schools are providing unacceptably low standards of education.
If parents didn't take control of the education of their children, the said children would leave school illiterate

Hear, hear, Rollmops.

Not so sure, Rollmops. My dcs are getting a far better education at their comprehensive than their uncle did at his comprehensive 30 years ago. And a fair few parents did leave school illiterate 30 years ago- that is why their children are not encouraged to read at home.

my ds(16) is doing very well too