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Original poster

Comprehensive grammars???

62 replies

mumzy · 26/05/2010 18:53

just read about free schools on BBC website and the comedian Toby Young who wants to set up a comprehensive grammar school which is for all abilities
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/10138787.stm
Free schools being part of the conservative party manifesto the same party under David Cameron who opposes grammar schools.
Could someone explain to me what is a comprehensive grammar school as it seems to be an oxymoron

OP posts:
katycarr · 26/05/2010 19:18

It will be a very strict school

senua · 26/05/2010 19:31

Historically, I believe the definition of a grammar school was one that selected its pupils. Over time, this came to mean academic selection, but it doesn't have to be that. So you could have a school that was academically-comprehensive but grammar/selective on sports or drama or music or whatever it is that makes you stand out from the crowd.

Or I could have got the wrong end of the stick and it's not that at all.

LynetteScavo · 26/05/2010 20:05

I have no idea.

I don't like the idea of selective state schools (although in practice they obviously work very well)

Toby Young describes them as schools for children who don't have pushy parents, but would benefit from a push school. (Or something)

So you work the children like they are at a grammar school, even though they may not be particularly academically able. Like in the olden days. Could work I s'pose, as long as the non academic ones are allowed to leave at 15 to go and work in a shop.

Original poster
mumzy · 26/05/2010 20:07

The OED definition of a comprehensive school is "a system of secondary education in which children of all abilities from a particular area are educated at one school" and a grammar school is defined as "a state secondary school to which pupils are admitted on the basis of ability" so which bits of each is he going to keep?

OP posts:
TrillianAstra · 26/05/2010 20:08

Definitely oxymoron. Isn't Toby Young the 'lose friends and alienate people' guy?

belledechocolatefluffybunny · 26/05/2010 20:10

The local college (it's a school really) takes children of all abilities, however, they all sit an entrance exam and the school takes in a percentage of each ability. If there's 100 in the intake, they take 1/4 bright, 2/4 normal, 1/4 who need additional support. It's not selective but it is IYSWIM.

2cats2many · 26/05/2010 20:12

I think that what he's really talking about is a comprehensive admissions policy, but with a curiculum and culture more akin to a grammar (double Latin, etc).

His biggest problem is that he doesn't have a site for the school at the moment. He won;t get very far until that's sorted.

callmeDave · 26/05/2010 20:15

There is a school in west midlands which has an entrance exam but rather than taking the top people, they devide all the results up into sections (90-100%,80-90%,70-80% etc. sort of thing) and take the top few from each band. So there might be 30 people who scored over 90% but there would also be 30 people who scored between 20 and 30%, so it is a selective by exam mixed ability school.

EdgarAllenPoll · 26/05/2010 20:17

the school i wish to connive my children into when they are old enough is a grammar (with latin, greek, setting by ability) and also a comprehensive...

and rated by the Times amongst the top 500 state secondary schools.

i don't see a contradiction, and yes, i think there should be more schools like it...

callmeDave · 26/05/2010 20:21

Having latin and greek and setting by ability doesn't make it a grammar. Don't all comps set by ability? (naive dcs still at primary). Our local comp does offer latin, but another one nearby doesn't even though its a specialist language school .

autodidact · 26/05/2010 20:25

It is a load of old bollocks as a concept. Quelle surprise from Toby Young.

Original poster
mumzy · 26/05/2010 20:28

CMD that sounds like a comp which streams its intake into top, middle and bottom sets. Its what they did in the 70's and 80's until it was deemed more PC to have mixed ability classes and not be branded as being elitist.
I'd be really interested as to where they're going to house these schools as probably all sites big enough particularly in london and the south east must be worth millions to a property developer and local authorities in these stricken times will want to use them as a easy milch cow

OP posts:
Original poster
mumzy · 26/05/2010 20:37

CMD the vast majority of comprehensive schools in the UK stream only for maths and english from year 8 onwards and all other lessons are taught in mixed ablilty classes.

According to OED "grammar schools founded in or before the 16th century were for the teaching of Latin and then began teaching academic subjects later on"

OP posts:
LynetteScavo · 26/05/2010 20:41

Which school in the West Midlands is that, 8callmeDave*? Sounds like an exercise in making parents nervous, if you ask me. [grin'

callmeDave · 26/05/2010 20:46

Can't remember what its called but my cousin tried to get in 3 years ago. It was really stressful for him. He didn't pass the exam for the ordinary grammar and felt ok about it based on he tried his best but didn't make it, but this one he was obsessing about if he had got some wrong on purpose he might have got in. It was a very good school iirc.

EdgarAllenPoll · 26/05/2010 20:56

there are plenty of grammar schools with comprehensive admissions policies...

and no, not all comps set by ability - even in english and maths.

loungelizard · 26/05/2010 20:57

Surely a grammar school selects by academic ability, a comprehensive doesn't select by any criteria?

You can't have a comprehensive grammar school. It doesn't make sense.

I think the word 'grammar' school is getting mixed up with 'traditional' i.e being run on the lines of a school in the private sector. After all, many private schools are 'comprehensive' in their intake, i.e don't select by academic ability alone (e.g sports scholarships etc).

It's all very muddled.

What Toby Young wants is a state school which has all the trappings of a private school but without having to pay the fees and obviously without any undesirables- with children like his in it.

2cats2many · 26/05/2010 20:57

Re: where they schools will be sited- I understand that in Sweden (you know how everyone goes on about the 'brilliant' swedish free school model) many are housed in old office blocks, etc and there is a big emphasis on online learning.

Some parents groups here want councils to be legally obliged to give groups that want to set up free schools first refusal on sites that they don't want any more before they are sold.

Obviously two of the biggest questions with people setting up these schools willy-nilly is the question of who will actually run them (probably big business) and what impact they will make on existing provision for instance, leading to over-supply in areas, falling rolls in existing schools leading to a reduction in funds available for these schools.

Some of these parents groups are campaiging in areas where there is actually a need for more provision, which is fair enough. TY's part of London isn't. He might be better off puting his energies into supporting and improving the local high school rather than blethering on.

EdgarAllenPoll · 26/05/2010 21:13

You can't have a comprehensive grammar school. It doesn't make sense.

I'll go and tell my old school it doesn't exist then?

autodidact · 26/05/2010 21:16

No- just tell us what you mean, Edgar! You went to a grammar school that didn't select on ability, you're saying? In what way was it a grammar, if so?

EdgarAllenPoll · 26/05/2010 21:23

it was founded as a grammar school (obv to begin with being a grammar school = school that taught grammar, nothing to do with intake..) and is still called one, still has a very academic ethos, still sets a much as possible rather than as little as possible, teaches Latin and Greek...the only difference is it doesn't screen intake by ability.

having been to two comps before hand it was a definite change in atmosphere...

autodidact · 26/05/2010 21:37

Well, I follow you but think that if it doesn't select by ability then it's not (any longer) a grammar, within the usual useage of the word which refers to intake rather than curriculum. But I think your sort of school is probably what Toby Young means by a comprehensive grammar.

LynetteScavo · 26/05/2010 21:39

You can have a "bi-lateral" school.

We have comprehensive, and secondary modern, and a bi-lateral schools. With the bi-lateral, you can just go to if you are in the catchment area, or can take the 11+ to get into the grammar stream if you are outside of the catchment area.

jackstarbright · 26/05/2010 22:13

FYI - Link to Toby Young's school blog .westlondonfreeschool

prh47bridge · 26/05/2010 22:31

Interesting phrase from Toby Young. The school can't select on academic ability. That's not allowed. I imagine he means a comprehensive school that teaches to the standards that used to be seen in grammar schools.

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