Needing advice

[Sallytheknit]

Hi there, kind of a newbie here so I hope you don't mind me butting in, but I'm hoping someone can help me.

I have two daughters, aged 8 and 10. They couldn't be more different. The 8-year-old is academically very bright and would I think (if she carries on the way she is) make grammar school or scholarship private school + university material.

The 10-year-old is the one that's causing me the headaches. She is reasonably bright, but not at all academic: by which I mean that as soon as she's asked to grasp an abstract concept she just loses interest.

We've found that when she's engaged and interested - for example, when she's learning through art or through gardening (don't ask...) - she picks things up really quickly. But in a large classroom situation she just drifts off.

Understandably the state education system she's currently in is not able to give her what she needs. She's started kicking over the traces - refusing to do tests, for example (she just scribbles all over the papers). This as you can imagine is getting her into all sorts of trouble at school and I can see she's becoming branded as 'difficult'. I can see that she is, in a state school context, but I can also understand why.

I'm entirely agonising over secondary schools for her, and it's getting imminent as she's nearly at the end of year 5 now. We live near an excellent and highly academic state secondary school: it would fit the 8-year-old like a glove, but my eldest would just sink without trace if we let her go there.

As it happens we are already planning to move house somewhere more rural. So we're now looking for locations which offer us good secondary school options for the 8-year-old in the long term but also a school that's going to enable us to avoid five years of hell (until she's 16 and can leave school) with the 10-year-old in the short term.

I had looked at Steiner schools, whose approach to learning seems tailor-made for her but I've been put off by the talk of eurhythmy, anthroposophy and goodness knows what else. I don't want this to turn into yet another heated discussion of Steiner schools but if anyone can reassure me I'm trying to keep an open mind about it.

But other than this I don't know what my options are, or indeed if I have any. We aren't wealthy so can't afford an expensive private school for her (though small-ish school fees would be just about do-able). But I really want somewhere with a truly alternative approach to education: somewhere which teaches through doing, not through abstract thinking.

Anyone got any ideas?

I would suggest you look carefully at state schools. I would be a little concerned about moving anywhere too rural, as it is in towns that there are often consortium of schools which are able to offer a range of options at 14-16. For instance my DS's school (and others locally) offer days in college, and some work based training routes, which are highly competitive.
There are other schools in the private sector which are somewhat alternative, (St Christopher's Letchworth, Frensham Heights or Bedales) but they do tend to have high fees.
Children who don't do well at primary can thrive at secondary, as it is a quite different experience.
Do talk to your daughter, and talk honestly with prospective schools. Do visit not just go on reputation. Good luck.

I can tell you about St Chris and a bit about Frensham- have had contacts there.

You are looking at around £15K a year at St Chris- as a day pupil and more at Frensham. Also, both are located in places where property costs are veyr high.

TBH if fees are an issue you are not going to get a lot of choice.

You might like to read the Good Schools Guide, which is about independent schools, or contact educational consultants like Gabbitas who advise parents.

I wonder however, if your DD's problems are behavioural/attitude based and that she might respond better to a very structured approach rather than the alternative type of school you are considering?

She sounds as if she is going through a pubery type rebelling stage, and if she is average would probably do well enough in a "normal" school.

Thank you both for your considered replies.

MT I agree about the 'too rural' thing - although I've been trying to convince hubby to move to Worcestershire as the schools there seem to be small and highly-rated. They also put a strong emphasis on pastoral care. I do think she needs teachers to know who she is: it's when she feels anonymous that she seems to wander off the track a bit.

I know about Frensham Heights as it happens - it's our nearest 'progressive' school. Actually I'm not entirely in favour of sending her to a very free-form school - Summerhill was another one I looked at but thought it wasn't structured enough for her. It's not so much the school system I'm worried about - more the very theoretical teaching methods that seem to prevail everywhere.

Also you're right - we can't afford Frensham, or for that matter Bedales (another one I looked at). So perhaps you're right HUT and I don't really have much choice in truth.

I do absolutely think her problems are behavioural/attitude - but it's not something that's easily 'fixed' as it's part of her personality. She just responds well when she's engaged, usually through an activity, and doesn't respond at all when she's told something and then expected to know it.

Perhaps you're both right and actually I should just stop worrying about her. Most people make it through secondary school in one piece and it is only 5 years. If we do end up sticking with the state system I'm pinning my hopes on the diplomas as they seem very practical and certainly the ELBS (Environment & Land-based Studies) is right up her street.

Sigh... kids can do your head in with worry sometimes, can't they?

hi Sallytheknit, have you heard of of Human Scale Education or of Democratic Schools ?

Depending on where you live they may be worth looking into.

Regarding the school movement you mention, I am one of the many families on here who have written about our experiences. Bizarre as it sounds many of the threads were deliberately sabotaged by followers of the movement, they track any negative press by joining the forum in an attempt to silence the parents and forum moderators by supposedly threatening legal action.

One of them recently admitted he deliberately used legal terminology without any intention nor means to apply legal action he stated:

"I refer to the factual meaning of the words, what they normally mean to people, not the limited legal sense".

Incredibly disingenuous and a very nasty form of blackmail to use legal terms in communication with a parenting forum knowing it will frighten just enough to get whole threads and posts deleted.

Anyway all I can say is if you are seriously considering the schools you mention run for the hills read as much as you can and you'll be fine!

If you went for Herefordshire rather than Worcestershire Fairfield High would probably suit them both. Very high-achieving school but quite alternative and an intake of 70. It is right out in the sticks though. Hereford also has the state-funded Steiner academy.

How about Totnes.

There is a state comprehensive that has a very hippy feel to it. The high achievers are stretched (my sister went there and one some national prizes for physics) but it's relaxed enough for your younger one to fit in.

King Edward IV. It sort of picks up the whole Totnes vibe. P

If you are anywhere close to me (and the reference to Frensham suggests you might. I would say my closest academic comprehensive (from my biases which might be different to yours) is actually better able to cope with hormonal girls than some of the smaller slightly more pastoral ones.
You don't want her confined to lower sets than necessary just because she is a bit awkward. You do want her stretched and enthused.
My son has coped much better than I ever expected at secondary school. He has found the discipline and the stricter expectations helpful, although compared to other schools I known his strict school has been much better at meeting his personal needs, despite being huge.

BTW Frensham Heights etc. are nothing like Summerhill, what was considered progressive in the 1920s was very different to progressive in 1960. But they do have high fees.

just wondering if your daughter has been seen by an educational psychologist? my sons behaviour was exactly the same, and is the same age and has recently been diagnosed with ADHD. his is sunny natured and never has violent outbursts (many people hold a very negative view of ADHD - often unfounded!) when not interested, he switches off. he has a high IQ and is , quite rightly!, bored by 'chalk and talk' teaching where he is expected to sit still and listen. if the subject/teacher holds his interested he is fine. we are in the same position as you and looking at frensham and bedales. we also looked at steiner and also were put off by the slightly 'weird' emphasis on the moons cycle etc etc! there are several 'new schools' being started around the country which we are now looking at, but i dont think they will be up and running in time for our son. montessorri style may be better.... it is depressing how little schools have changed since i left 30 years ago..:(

Go and have a good look round all the secondaries. A school that has a lot to offer for academic children may also have a good range of options for the less academic. I have a 10yo who sounds like an exact copy of yours and I can't wait for him to go to secondary where he can do subjects like graphics and resistant materials and media studies and food tech, and be taught art by a properly trained teacher, not by a primary school teacher who thinks neat equals artistic. Dd's secondary sounds so much more fun than his primary.

avoid Steiner like the plague - it's not at all relaxed and child=centred - your dd would be expected to fit in every bit as much as she is now, but in a vaguer, much harder to define way which I suspect she'd find v confusing

we'd always thought that our eldest - v spirited, non-conformist, always wanting to 'kick over the traces' - would need some kind of 'free-form' education, but paradoxically the place where he's thrived (and continues to thrive) is a very strict, traditional academic boys' school. It's not where I thought he'd end up at all - however he actually needs really strict boundaries and structure in order to get on. So it might be that your dd actually needs more structure, rather than less ...

also meant to say ... secondary much better than upper end of primary for most children - a lot have outgrown the primary approach and relish different subjects taught by different teachers

Summerhill will bring out the best in your 10 year old.

Classes are totally optional. So she doesn't need to 'rebel' against the system. She only goes to class if she feels like it.

Then when she does go, she'll actually learn something :)