school appeals

[fisher123]

can anyone help me i am appealing for a school place my appeal is on distance i was in the tie-breaker the school are saying that we live 1024meters by gis measurements , but when we have measured the route with a meter walker we only live 595 meters away how can i get this across to the appeal panel? ive tried to ask my local community police officer to verify it but he dosent want to no. ive been on to the school and asked them to remeasure it but to no avail its a safe walking route which i walk with other mothers my dd has also a speech problem (stammer) is there any grounds that i can use with this she is under a speech therapist also

Hi ya - I will try to help. I work for an LA and provide advice re procedural matters on appeals. In relation to the distance all LA's will use one system to measure the distance from your front door to the schools designated main enterance and use main roads / recognised foot paths etc (the route may not be the route you use in practice as there may be a shorter way) - you can try and see if they have left out a footpath that technically they shld be using I.e otherwise your child is disadvantaged etc - in relation to your DD's speech issue has the school you are appealing for have better facilities to deal with speech issue than any other school in your borough? If so you could possibly use that as the main factor of wanting your DD at that school? Letter of support from speech therapist?

Remember though that reception, year 1 and 2 are restricted to 30 per class as per the infant class size legislation so the panels hands are tied when making a decision so to speak. Good luck !

In relation to the GIS - you need to check the exact criteria they use for the measurement. If, for example, they state "shortest walking route using lit footpaths" and your route involves a path that hasn't got streetlights, then, sorry, your route doesn't count for their purposes. You need to make sure your route counts under their criteria - you can't argue a change of criteria. Just because you are happy to walk that way doesn't mean they have to measure it that way.

In relation to the stammer - did you mention this at application? You would need to show why your DD's needs can only be met by this school, and not by the one she is allocated. You would need back up from medical practitioners, say your Dr, or speech therapist, as to why this would be the case.

The critical question is what the admission criteria say. They will specify how distance is measured. As PatriciaHolm says, you need to find out what route they used and make sure that your route meets their criteria. It doesn't matter that your route is safer or shorter than theirs. If it doesn't meet their criteria it doesn't count.

However, if your route does meet their criteria then you should bring this up at appeal. They may argue that your route doesn't meet their criteria in some way so be prepared for this. Photos of any parts of the route that may be in dispute might help.

If your route is within the criteria and is short enough to mean your child should have been admitted, your appeal should be successful.

they wont tell me the route until the day of the appeal. the criteria which is wrote on their statement of appeal states by the shortest walking route from the front door of the childs home address to the main enterance of the school , i have got a letter from my dd speech therapist saying that significant change could be detrimental to my dd, the school only have a PAN of 25 because they state that they r a smaller than average school so the Department of Education and Employment guidance can only accomodate 25 pupils. i dont no any thing about this so any help would be gratefull!

Point out to the LA that paragraph 2.12(b) of the School Admission Appeals Code requires them to give you all information you reasonably ask of them at least 3 working days before the hearing so that you can prepare. Giving you the route on the day of the appeal is simply not good enough.

You need to check the admission criteria used. These will normally be in an admissions booklet which you will be able to find on the LA's website. If you can't find them, tell us which LA is involved. The detailed criteria will tell us if it is just shortest walking route as stated in the appeal papers or if there are criteria to be met by this route, e.g. must have street lighting. You need to be sure that your route meets their criteria.

The fact that the PAN is only 25 helps as it means this won't be an infant class size appeal. That means you could win the appeal even if the LA hasn't made a mistake about the distance. The letter from your DD's speech therapist could be helpful, especially if it says, "in my opinion a significant change could be detrimental" or something like that. It needs to be clear that this is the therapists opinion, not just the therapist repeating your opinion.

phr this is a va primary school on the tie-breaker where there are places available for some,but not all applicants within a particular criterion,distance from home address to the school entrance will be the deciding factor, distance will be measured by the shortest safest walking route from the centre of the child home address(including flats) to the main entrance of the school(using the local authoritys computerised measuring system) with those living closer to the school receiving the highest priority Thats all it says the measuring system is a GIS

Ah - I've come across "shortest safest" before. I wonder if it is the same LA. It really isn't a very good definition. If there is a choice, do you take the shortest route or the safest route? The "shortest safest" wording doesn't make sense. If it were me I would be tempted to have a go at that.

The argument at the appeal is likely to be over what constitutes a safe route. You need to know the route the LA has used. I would then take a proper map with your route highlighted and photos of both your route and the LAs route. The goal is to show that your route is at least as safe as the route the LA has chosen.

If the LA refuse to tell you their route until the day of the appeal I would tell the appeal panel that you have been denied a proper chance to prepare for the appeal by the LA's refusal to comply with the mandatory provisions of the School Admissions Appeal Code, specifically paragraph 2.12(b). It is then up to the appeal panel to decide how to deal with this situation.

I would also make as strong a case as you can around your DD's stammer and the letter from her speech therapist.

prh thanks for that information my hubby has just been on the phone to the clerk of appeal after a few calls they phoned us back and they are sending the the route out to us we should get it in the next few days we did put a highlighted map in when we submitted our appeal for the route that i take with also a letter from a parent who walks with me many thanks again.

hi there i need help i finaly received the route what the LA have said im to walk and i canit believe it part of it is no access there is a big wall and i cant get thru! what do i do they have made a big mistake do i tell them now or do i wait until my appeal on tuesday please help

Tell them. It may result in them changing their minds before the appeal. Even if it doesn't, it avoids any chance of them saying that they need to adjourn the appeal to take in your evidence.

Also, if you can, I would take photographs of your route and the LA's route with you to the appeal. You need to show the panel that the LA's route is impractical and that your route meets the criteria laid down ("shortest safest route").

Good luck for Tuesday.

well ive been on the phone to clerk of appeals they said they would get in touch with admissions to try and get it sorted out dont quite no what will happen now hopefuly they offer me a place!

forgot to ask does anyone no what rights i have if the LA make a mistake on distance my child lost out on a place because of this if they done there job right in the first place she would be in the school

When our LEA made a mistake they had to give the child a place which means the class is now 31 children which means that they had to fund a full time TA for the class.

if a mistake has been made AND your DC would have got a place but for the mistake then your DC will be admitted, even if this means 31 (or more) in a class, as infant class size rules don't apply in this case (your DC is classed as an "excepted pupil" until the end of the academic year ). If there are still more than 30 in the class by the end of the year then the school need to take action, and employ another teacher if that is the only answer.

If the admissions authority accept a mistake has been made that denied a place being awarded they should admit without the need to go to appeal, but if there is any potential dispute over the issue then it will most probably end up at appeal.

just been on the phone to clerk of appeal they have said nothing about the route being a mistake but i did tell them the route that i take,ive walked it time and time again with a calibrated trundel wheel and i get 595 from my house to the school gate, they are now saying they have measured it and its 698 by gis thats 100 nearly 100 meters out how can this be? my appeal is tomoro

I'm afraid the GIS will win over the trundle wheel in terms of accuracy. However, 100m is quite a lot. Some thoughts:

• they may be measuring from a different point on your house (e.g. the centre point rather than the front door or gate)
• they may be measuring to a different point in the school (e.g. the centre point rather than the front gate)
• a GIS won't cut corners. It will go up the middle of the road or footpath until it reaches a junction then turn sharply to go up the middle of the next road/footpath. Even if you walk up the middle of the road/footpath with the trundle wheel, the tendency is to cut the corner when turning. Trundle wheel measurements are almost always shorter than the GIS says because corners are cut using a trundle wheel

I suspect the first two points above are likely to account for most of the difference.

Where was the cut off point in terms of distance for the children who were admitted?

3 children and only 1 place so we all had to go on distance meaning the closest to the school get a place i dont think there is a cut of point its a va faith school

If distance was used as a tie breaker there will be a cut off point. That is the distance for the last child admitted. Any children within that distance got in, any children outside that distance didn't.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by 3 children and 1 place. Was this part of the normal admissions round?

just rang them and they said there is no cut off point it goes by child gets admitted in order of closest, is this what u mean? what i canit understand is when i measured the distance from my house to the school gate using trundel wheel it was 595 meters and the other child lives 670 meters from the school now using the gis system my route is 698 which i new would be longer cause like you said it measures in straight lines and turns sharply but the other childs route by gis is only 640 i dont understand why isnit theirs longer using gis hope i dont sound to thick! im starting to get tired now x i dont think il stand a chance against the gis so im looking at the other options now i might be better going with my daughters speech problems for the appeal

What I mean by the cut off point is the distance for the last child admitted. The child closest to the school gets admitted first. At the point where they run out of places, the last child admitted will be, say, 500m from the school. That is then the cut off point - every child within that distance has been admitted, any child outside that distance hasn't. Ask them the distance for the last child admitted. However, it seems you already know that since you say it is 640m by GIS.

I am surprised you know who the "other child" is. I presume by "other child" you mean the last child admitted. They should not have given you any information allowing you to identify that child.

Looking earlier in the thread, I see you said they measure from the centre of the child's address to the school gate. That makes a difference of 100m in this distance quite surprising. However, unless you can show that they've measured from the wrong house or to the wrong gate, you'll have difficulty persuading the appeal panel that it is wrong.

The fact that the other child's route comes out shorter using GIS suggests that they may have used a different route from the one you measured (or it may again indicate that they are measuring to a different gate). However, all of this is guesswork I'm afraid.

Is this a primary school or a secondary school? What is the admission number for this school?

its a primary school Pan of 25 how i no which child it is, is their house is also highlighted on the map which the la sent out to me on friday

That's naughty. The LA shouldn't do that. That may be a breach of the Data Protection Act.

As the PAN is 25 this is not an infant class size case. That's good as it means you've got a reasonable chance of winning providing you can show that your daughter's speech problems mean that her education will be damaged if she doesn't go to this school.

I would also raise the distance question in part 1. The LA has clearly made a mistake in measuring your distance. Have they got it right for the other child?

Have you tried measuring the distances on the map the LA has provided? The panel won't accept that a distance measured on a map is more accurate than one produced by a GIS but a large discrepancy may make them wonder what's going on.

i have tried to measure the routes what the la have gave me where do i start the origional distance what they gave me was 1024 meters, when i phoned up to ask for the (map) route, they did eventualy send it i only got it on friday ,the distances on there were totaly different distances one is 751m and route 2 is 743m ive got no idea still where they got 1024 from the routes are just not accesable the first one the only way to access it is to jump my back fence , the second half way through it is no access to public a big brick wall! no way round it. i phoned them up and told them this they asked me which way i walked so i told them i said by trundel wheel it only measures 595 any way when they measured it by gis they came back with 698 im totaly lost this whole thing is just doing my head in now my appeal is tomoro! i no i couldnt beleive the other persons house was on my map!

Tell the whole story to the panel. It may make them wonder how many other mistakes the LA has made. No guarantee it will work but its worth a try.

Good luck for tomorrow.

thank you so much for your help i just cant wait now until this is over i just want the best for my child like any other parent x