Foreign Language teaching at Primary School - what are your views?

[saraliz]

I am currently studying for my teaching degree and am a TA in a Primary School. I am very interested in Modern Foreign Languages (MFL), although I'm not convinced they should be in Primary Schools and would love to hear other people's views on this.
Do you think children should be learning a language in Key Stage 2? (Due to become legislation in Sept 2011.)
Should all children be included in these lessons, or should some be removed for extra teaching in more core subjects?
If you are a teacher, how confident do you feel to deliver MFL lessons on a scale of 1-10??
ANY views on this subject will be VERY gratefully received!
Please tell me if you are answering as a parent or a teacher.(or both!)
Many, many thanks!

There is something in that thing about the telly, BlauerEngel, (even if it can't be the whole explanation: Scandinavians were known for their good language skills long before they had access to foreign television). It is very much, as you say, about pragmatism though: if you think you have to you will. And yes, TV certainly does reinforce that attitude. Hadn't thought about the pernicious effect on dubbing, but you are right of course, that must have a psychological effect.

Am also reminded of a well know English academic who lived in my Swedish home town for many years, married to a Swede, lectured at my university. Not only did he not bother to acquire the ability to lecture in Swedish: he treated the entire university as a kind of outpost of his own English alma mater, making the same donnish jokes he would have made at home and assuming that they were international currency. They just had to adapt to him because there was no way he was going to adapt to them. And funnily enough, most people actually liked it, they flocked to his lectures and were flattered when they understood his jokes, because they had been brought up to think it was their job to understand people like him, so they felt pleased with themselves when they got it right. They never stopped to think what his job was. If I had been his wife....

I see frakk, sorry to be thick

I don't personally think acquiring a native-like pronunciation in a foreign language is important but it is important that your accent is not so strong that it prevents understanding.

I've just been thinking you know we have been discussing whether non native speakers should teach at primary at all but how did that work then with Manx (the last native speaker having died before it was reintroduced in nursery and at schools). I think the language has been quite successfully reintroduced. Isn't Hebrew always cited in these cases too, it has been effectively made the mother tongue of Israelis but I don't see how they could have had enough native speakers to teach it at the onset.

Maybe our primary teachers can teach foreign languages well enough with decent material (do we have high quality dvd based courses for instance?) and given the right general atmosphere of enthusiasm (teaching body, heads, parents, etc).

I totally believe that teachers could teach without being native speakers, funny accent and all, as long as they can use the language. You can expose the children to accents by using DVDs or recordings in the same way the TOEIC uses American, British, Australian etc accents. Teachers could do immersion programmes or exchanges - 6 weeks does an incredible amount of good - and be encouraged to use the language among themselves, maybe with some native speaker support. LA's could introduce language courses, it could even become compulsory to take a MFL for a term as part of your primary PGCE. We could do it, in fact they'd be great role models! The kids would presumably know that the teacher was English and hopefully be inspired by the teacher's ability to communicate in that language.

What won't work is giving teachers lesson plans, lists of words and saying 'teach this' which is basically what currently happens. I have a friend who teaches at a primary school in Nottingham - very pragmatic approach, all feeder primaries are introducing Spanish as a pilot etc. She was the only teacher who spoke ANY Spanish and she dropped it at GCSE. Last year she had to plan all the Spanish lessons, worked really hard on her own Spanish and coaching the other teachers but felt the children weren't progressing and despaired of doing it all again. Then 3 of the teachers went on holiday to Spain that summer and were so surprised at what they could do to communicate (the teachers themselves that is) and how much they'd come along from just being in Spain that they felt much more confident teaching it and this year it's going much better. Now just think if we could get all primary teachers doing that!

And you weren't being thick, ZZZen - I wasn't being clear.

My DD is at a 3 -18 school which has a progressive modern languages program. My DD has been studying French since nursery, this year in year 1 they added mandarin chinese. By the end of year 6 they have the language building blocks for mandarin chinese, french, Italian and Spanish. The school developed this policy by looking at their GCSE and A-level results and analysis was performed related to when the children started the learning each one as a result of this they felt that prior to year 8 most children are learning how to learn a language rather than a particular language. They then developed a program that took the esstential building blocks from different languages for example in spanish the ending of the word tells you whether it is male or female once you know this in spanish you know it in french and italian hence they are much easier.
The Teaching does not use text books and examines the culture of each country as well as the langauge. The children love it, on Friday in the eurostar terminal DD held a great little conversation in french with a member of staff who then commented on the quality of her french and accent.

I can't really understand why the teaching of MFL is so widely different across the country. Never heard of that building block approach for instance before liz

Because it's not covered as standard in most teacher training courses is the basic answer.

Some places are lucky enough to have access to specialists from secondary link schools, others have a good local authority who have a strategy for language learning, others just get on with it as best they can.

It's also not something which is a national prioity - it's a nice extra - so there isn't concentrated effort on MFL teaching and then there's the cultural stereotype that we don't 'need' to speak other languages to break through.

ZZZ building block aproach is unique to DDs school they started to roll it out very subtly about 8 years ago. Having had 4 of the first 15 girls to do it get places to oxford, cambridge and durham last summer they decided it was a great thing and have pushed it out completely.
In nursery, reception, year 1 and year 2 it is 15 minute slots twice a week for each language all play based with specialist teachers some nationals of the countries others UK teachers.
Unfortunatly nationally we have this totally wrong English is no longer the most widely spoken language Chinese first then spanish, we have to wake up and equip our children to work in a world economy otherwise they will be left behind.

Sorry just reread message obviously girls got places to study modern langauages.

DD taught French daily from reception and mandarin chinese.
Both subjects by specialist teachers.
School informs us the expected attainment is fluency by P6.
Both have been approached very differently. French has not focused on grammer or spelling until P3 lots of music, stories, reading aloud, spoken french.
Chinese very formal - vocab ,pronunciation old school type rote learning. The result for both has been amazing.
Children who are slower in English are excluded from 2 french classes per week.
4 Streamed classes from P2.
The children appear to take it in their stride.

lizcat how cool is your school! and what a great idea to really think about the languages offered in such a logical way.

THK how interesting to have the 2 different approaches so you can compare results

SFA
Yes very interesting results, however hv spoken with Mandarin teacher who explained because the structure of the language is not phonetic and based on "radicals" which have no meaning or sounds however are the fundamental structure for vocab. there is no other way other than rote learning before the children can progress which is why the first couple of years have been about copying and memorising.
DD is 7 and can read simple stories in both languages.
She can write fluent sentences in french but simple sentences in chinese due to the construction of the words.
The Indian children have faired much better than the native english children in chinese but not so in French.

Hi everyone I am so glad I have found this thread...
I am looking to set up a language school for children and so far whilst doing my market research (on the net) have had parents tell me this is a waste of time...up to the point I have been rethinking wether i should go ahead with this or not...I have put a lot of effort and research into this and to be honest have been very deflated from the feedback...
I have pasted some general information about the academy, classes etc below and would love your hear your thoughts, especially on our methodology and our prices etc
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Little Language Academy is a play based immersion school teaching 5 different languages from the ages birth - 11 years.

Our Methodology
Children's minds are like sponges, they absorb and can retain information from a very young age. Their minds are naturally primed to learn any language effortlessly from birth to the age of 7. They are also born with a natural ability to acquire language simply through hearing and use.
By immersing a child in a given language from an early age they are more likely to become fluent, have better pronunciation and will make it easier for them to learn a language through a traditional academic route once in High school.
Research shows children learn better through play, our play based learning method will maximise and enhance the child?s language learning experience.

Languages taught:
ArabicChinese*French*ItalianSpanish
Our Curriculum
Classes will be taught by native speakers. The classes will involve physical movement, play, activities, games and general fun our program has been developed with maximum sensory and intellectual activities.
The curriculum and scheme of work is developed based on the early years foundation stage guidelines and on the national curriculum for MFL and we have incorporated learning through a play and fun based environment. It is a spiral curriculum so the themes taught will be reintroduced over the terms.

Classes:
Mums and Tots:
Age 1-3 and 3-5 yrs will be a 1hour session with a 15 min break in-between for snack, nappy change etc. (siblings under 1yrs are free)
Child only classes
5-8 yrs 1.5 hours.
8-11 yrs 1.5 hours.
Price per term: 12 week sessions@ £108 (discount available for siblings)

Our website is under construction at present but will be up and running very soon, this will provide you with more information about the academy, research and evidence on language learning, more information on the curriculum and methodology, and general information on classes.
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any feedback is welcome

Lizcat, which school does you DC go? I really like the idea they teach MFL there. Thanks

Sorry not read all the posts.

I'm of the opinion that teaching another language should start as early as possible. My ex husband is half French so both my children have, as they've grown learnt to pick up very good accents from their grandma and ex.

They are also in a school that starts teaching French from reception with native speaking teachers and to help learn words, lots of the classrooms/signage all around the school is in English then in French too. The school also own a property in France that the children are taken to regularly and totally immersed in the language and the French way of living.

My dd is 6 and can hold a basic conversation and my ds is 11 and has been told he could attempt a GCSE paper. He will start Spanish when he is in yr 9 but he has self taught himself a lot of Spanish as my parents have an appt there and he loves to speak how the locals do!

I'm sure starting early has helped them both enormously, not only with the mfl but with English too.

I, however started French at 11 when I started senior school, even having married into a French family (near enough) I still cannot converse in French :(
although I can remember how to ask a shop if they sell little mushrooms! so I'll never starve if I visit France!!!!

btw I am a mum and work in school as a CS

Interesting thread.

Language teaching in primary school can be very effective, but is IMO pointless if it's only one or two sessions a week taught by non-native speakers who often don't have a strong grasp of the language they are teaching.

I taught at an English immersion school for French-speaking children where most classes were taught only in English from nursery school (4-5) onwards. It was amazing to see how quickly they made progress. The nursery children often found it difficult and scary at the beginning but settled into the system quickly, especially those with older siblings at the school. These kids had a decent grasp of the language by year 1 and 2, and by year 4 many were fluent.

Even in such an immersion system, it does take time to reach fluency and in my experience this is absolutely not achievable by a few token language session in primary school.

WRT to the difficulty of language learning at age 11 +, I agree with Cory. IMO Younger children learning languages who are basically taught to repeat set phrases parrot fashion or encouraged to prance around singing nursery rhymes will probably get less out of the experience than older children who can learning the grammar, understand the building blocks.

I agree with the comments by some previous posters about language learning here often being a question of box ticking. It is important to help children reach a stage where they can actually USE the language independently. This means teaching grammar, encouraging them to reach books in the target language, penpals, trips abroad, films etc ... I am of the possibly unpopular opinion that very basic knowledge of a language is close to useless. If you cannot clearly communicate, your rudimentary language skills are no help to you.

The support isn't there is the problem - you're told to teach this stuff but without any backup. I've been told in the past to teach French - I was in the group at school that did Spanish (purely arbitrary which one you ended up in) and my French is beyond minimal. You end up desperately trying to get one session ahead of the kids, terrified your pronuciation is wrong, constantly checking you're doing things right (my flashcards had idiots phonetic pronouciation written on in pencil for my benefit) and it's a nightmare.

On the other hand I've been in schools where the languages taught have been based upon individual teachers' strengths so across the school there's been French, Spanish, German, Welsh... all sorts! Much better - I could teach primary Spanish very confidently - but heads pick a language, usually French and just foist it on teachers who haven't used it since they were at school!

I think it's about time 2nd languages are being taught at primary level infact starting at nursery level is even better!!

But where are you going to get the money for enough teaching qualified native speakers, lbubbly?

All that my dcs have taken away from early French lessons (non qualified English speaking teachers with very limited French) is an appalling accent and a strong dislike of learning the language. Dd's current French teacher is having to work far harder to eradicate her mispronunciations than she would have had to work to teach her the right accent from scratch.

The fact that it is easier to pick up an accent when you are young cuts both ways- if the accent you do pick up is bad, it is very hard to get rid of it later. Dd is very bright and bilingual in another language, but she is struggling with her French for no other reason than poor teaching.

So, yes, if we think this is a good time to ask the taxpayers for more money and do a massive recruiting drive in France. Otherwise, no.

I believe the teachers spend time in French and Spanish primary schools overseas as part of their training.It could be more to do with the lack of british teachers NOT working and polishing up their accents .I'm now visualizing the school scene and yes I get the picture!!

DD2 attended la Jolie Jolie Ronde as an after school club from ages 8-11. She picked up a very good French accent that way. I think the sooner children start the better.

I am not a fan for lots of reasons:

• I think all children should learn English properly first
• esp in London so many children come from a multilingual background and have to master their own often two mother tongues plus English, so I am not happy about them having to learn a fourth or fifth language from the start
• If they want to teach a modern language from the start, at least I wish there was more choice of languages, in South West London pretty much all the schools offer French and I really don't see why it should be French which is not particularly useful. If at least children could also choose Russian, Arabic or Spanish I would see much more benefit
• there is no proven benefit to starting that early, although it is true that there is a benefit in starting at 11 rather than at 15, it is not proven that starting at 4 is better than starting at 8
• it is impossible to find a school in SW London that doesn't teach French from Reception though so there is no way around it

I think learning a second language from an early age is the way to go. Im inclined to agree with Whoosh about French being somewhat outdated as the default language taught in most schools. I know Mandarin is a complex language, but would I have thought it would be more useful to dc in the future. Some prep schools offer Mandarin Club as an extra-curricular activity, so it's obviously not impossible for children to learn. Although, less useful on ski holidays .

Sorry, that should have been

I am a language graduate and my love of languages came from a French Canadian teacher we had in Year 4 and I still remember the words I was taught then and really let to an interest in languages. My sister also had the same teacher and studied languages and became a language teacher. My younger sister missed out as she moved schools where no early language was provided and she barely scraped her GCSE. I have taught French in Primary Schools but through songs and games not through structured grammer. I would say it is the most open time for kids. My DD was listening to language CDs from 6 months and can pick up accents and language really easily now. My DS learnt Spanish at primary and has a really good accent but the teacher was a native speaker which I think is very important.